Questions for Chris Brewer - chief engineer for the 2011 Superduty
#31
06-01-2010, 01:37 PM
Bigger gas engine availability
Great Truck, and I like what I've seen/heard about the 6.7.
I noticed you mentioned you don't say anything about future products, but I would still like to know this: are there any plans for a big gas engine like the V10?
The reason I ask is simple and I know may others in my position; I have a horse trailer I pull hence I only NEED that diesel power a maybe 20-30 times a year. I really don't want to pay $7,000+ for that power I'm only going to use a few times a year (not only that, but the 6.7 is way more power than I need, lol). The 6.2 looks like a great engine, but I'm just not confident in it's ability given my 6.8L V10 3V with a 4.30 rear end doesn't like the hills around me that much. And although I would love to, I simply won't pay $50k for a truck will only use 20-30 times a year as a truck.
The even more favorable option I would love to see would be a smaller less expensive diesel with maybe 500-550 ft-lb torque that could tow 15,000-17,000 lbs. If such an engine could net really good mileage, be more cost effective (i.e. only $2-3k more than the standard gas engine instead of $7k), and do the do the job of a big gas engine, I would definitely consider it in the near future.
I know you can't comment much on this, but just wanted to see if this market was on the radar at Ford, or is it just to small of a market?
I noticed you mentioned you don't say anything about future products, but I would still like to know this: are there any plans for a big gas engine like the V10?
The reason I ask is simple and I know may others in my position; I have a horse trailer I pull hence I only NEED that diesel power a maybe 20-30 times a year. I really don't want to pay $7,000+ for that power I'm only going to use a few times a year (not only that, but the 6.7 is way more power than I need, lol). The 6.2 looks like a great engine, but I'm just not confident in it's ability given my 6.8L V10 3V with a 4.30 rear end doesn't like the hills around me that much. And although I would love to, I simply won't pay $50k for a truck will only use 20-30 times a year as a truck.
The even more favorable option I would love to see would be a smaller less expensive diesel with maybe 500-550 ft-lb torque that could tow 15,000-17,000 lbs. If such an engine could net really good mileage, be more cost effective (i.e. only $2-3k more than the standard gas engine instead of $7k), and do the do the job of a big gas engine, I would definitely consider it in the near future.
I know you can't comment much on this, but just wanted to see if this market was on the radar at Ford, or is it just to small of a market?
The 6.2L engine is obviously a tweener relative to the prior model 5.4L and 6.8L gas engines--it is rated for 19.5K GCW with 3.73 and 22.5K GCW with a 4.30 FDR. The 6.2L gets 15% better fuel economy than the 5.4L and 25% better fuel economy than the 6.8L. So while the 6.2L is not a completely transparent substitute for the 6.8L in terms of towing, it is a very capable engine. Given the relative low take rate on the 6.8L engine, we elected to go with a 6.2L engine as the only gas engine for the pickups. The 6.8L will continue on as the only gas engine for 450/550 chassis cabs. Oh by the way, the 6.2L engine is E85 capable as standard equipment.
Relative to smaller displacement diesel engines, you're right--I can't comment on future product actions.
Last edited by Chris Brewer; 06-01-2010 at 01:38 PM. Reason: Add info
#32
06-01-2010, 01:43 PM
Diesel Fuel Economy
There seems to be a lot of talk of fuel economy on these trucks. While no one is disputing they are doing better than the outgoing 6.4s, some are disappointed with the real world results as opposed to the early reviews of the pre-release trucks. I'll break my question into two sections:
1. What kind of 'prep' do the test trucks get, the ones that end up in magazine reviews? Stuff like, different fluids, mileage readings - how broken in were these trucks, etc..
2. More specific, what were the tuning changes if any, between these early trucks (whether they made it to a magazine or not) and the final/first production factory tune?
1. What kind of 'prep' do the test trucks get, the ones that end up in magazine reviews? Stuff like, different fluids, mileage readings - how broken in were these trucks, etc..
2. More specific, what were the tuning changes if any, between these early trucks (whether they made it to a magazine or not) and the final/first production factory tune?
2) No tuning differences between the media drive and the trucks we are selling to the public--what you read is what you get.
#33
06-01-2010, 01:59 PM
In lieu of the "regen" powered by diesel fuel, there is another way which is to use a electric heating element (which require plugging it in to 110V to work).
Why not install this system so the vehicle do not use valuable fuel for regen?
The DEF injection system:
Honda devised a system whereby it self-generates its own urea. Why not license it?
GM DOC breakthrough.
That sounds like a real winner --- assuming it actually works outside of the lab, why not license it from GM?
Why not install this system so the vehicle do not use valuable fuel for regen?
The DEF injection system:
Honda devised a system whereby it self-generates its own urea. Why not license it?
GM DOC breakthrough.
That sounds like a real winner --- assuming it actually works outside of the lab, why not license it from GM?
#34
06-01-2010, 02:01 PM
Turbo and Power Stroke Naming Questions
[quote=Thom12;8939152]By turning the 6.7 diesel heads, and placing the exhaust inboard you are able to greatly reduce the turbo lag and spool up time, great!
But placing the turbo in the hot valley like that surely seems like a reciepe for heat related turbo failures. What exactly has Ford done to over come this heat issue?
Also, why did Ford stick with Power Stroke name on the new motor? One would have thought new motor--new name. I like the Scorpion name used during R & D..... kind of took away the stigma of problem power strokes for me.
Thanks, great truck!
Relative to turbo placement, the in-board exhaust reduces total heat emitting surface area, lowering overall underhood thermal impact. However, we recognized the risk of turbocharger heat issues and incorporated the following actions:
1. The turbocharger is watercooled, first in the Super Duty segment.
2. A stand-alone cartridge is employed to house the variable geometry turbocharger vanes and vane control mechanism, shielding them from direct contact from the hot turbine casing.
3. Extensive vehicle and dynamometer thermal cycle testing were conducted to proveout the new design.
Relative to continuing on with the Power Stroke name, we have tremendous brand recognition and equity in the existing name. Bottom-line, the positives greatly outweighed the negatives associated with sticking with the Power Stroke brand name as opposed to building a new engine brand from scratch.
But placing the turbo in the hot valley like that surely seems like a reciepe for heat related turbo failures. What exactly has Ford done to over come this heat issue?
Also, why did Ford stick with Power Stroke name on the new motor? One would have thought new motor--new name. I like the Scorpion name used during R & D..... kind of took away the stigma of problem power strokes for me.
Thanks, great truck!
Relative to turbo placement, the in-board exhaust reduces total heat emitting surface area, lowering overall underhood thermal impact. However, we recognized the risk of turbocharger heat issues and incorporated the following actions:
1. The turbocharger is watercooled, first in the Super Duty segment.
2. A stand-alone cartridge is employed to house the variable geometry turbocharger vanes and vane control mechanism, shielding them from direct contact from the hot turbine casing.
3. Extensive vehicle and dynamometer thermal cycle testing were conducted to proveout the new design.
Relative to continuing on with the Power Stroke name, we have tremendous brand recognition and equity in the existing name. Bottom-line, the positives greatly outweighed the negatives associated with sticking with the Power Stroke brand name as opposed to building a new engine brand from scratch.
#35
06-01-2010, 02:01 PM
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The 6.2L engine is obviously a tweener relative to the prior model 5.4L and 6.8L gas engines--it is rated for 19.5K GCW with 3.73 and 22.5K GCW with a 4.30 FDR. The 6.2L gets 15% better fuel economy than the 5.4L and 25% better fuel economy than the 6.8L. So while the 6.2L is not a completely transparent substitute for the 6.8L in terms of towing, it is a very capable engine. Given the relative low take rate on the 6.8L engine, we elected to go with a 6.2L engine as the only gas engine for the pickups. The 6.8L will continue on as the only gas engine for 450/550 chassis cabs. Oh by the way, the 6.2L engine is E85 capable as standard equipment.
Relative to smaller displacement diesel engines, you're right--I can't comment on future product actions.
Relative to smaller displacement diesel engines, you're right--I can't comment on future product actions.
I'm just looking for something with a little more towing grunt (i.e. torque) than the 6.2 for less than $7,000. While I think the 6.2 is a capable engine, it would appear to be aimed more at the consumer worried about payload than towing given the equal HP/TQ ratio.Hopefully a smaller displacement diesel engine will make it into the super duty line up soon. I know of a few that are under development at Ford, although I don't know all the details since Ford doesn't fall under any of my projects.
Thanks for the info! It's nice to see the people from the manufacture out here talking with their consumers!
#36
06-01-2010, 02:06 PM
Software programmed engine shutdowns:
As I understand it, if the vehicle runs out of DEF, it gradually programs for a shutdown of the entire engine.
I understand the need for EPA compliance and so on. But how about a emergency manual override for these "software shutdowns"?
Routinely, problems occur in sensors, wiring, etc. that have nothing to do with a properly functioning system.
When that happens, often, faults are so elusive that fixes cannot be readily had --- a manual override --- with safeguards makes sense.
Wiring / Corrosion Issues
On my 05 vehicles, one major issue is corrosion of wiring and connectors.
Is there any thought to improving the durability of the wiring / connectors --- especially interior wiring that is exposed to road salt from the passengers?
As I understand it, if the vehicle runs out of DEF, it gradually programs for a shutdown of the entire engine.
I understand the need for EPA compliance and so on. But how about a emergency manual override for these "software shutdowns"?
Routinely, problems occur in sensors, wiring, etc. that have nothing to do with a properly functioning system.
When that happens, often, faults are so elusive that fixes cannot be readily had --- a manual override --- with safeguards makes sense.
Wiring / Corrosion Issues
On my 05 vehicles, one major issue is corrosion of wiring and connectors.
Is there any thought to improving the durability of the wiring / connectors --- especially interior wiring that is exposed to road salt from the passengers?
#37
06-01-2010, 02:10 PM
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In lieu of the "regen" powered by diesel fuel, there is another way which is to use a electric heating element (which require plugging it in to 110V to work).
Why not install this system so the vehicle do not use valuable fuel for regen?
The DEF injection system:
Honda devised a system whereby it self-generates its own urea. Why not license it?
GM DOC breakthrough.
That sounds like a real winner --- assuming it actually works outside of the lab, why not license it from GM?
Why not install this system so the vehicle do not use valuable fuel for regen?
The DEF injection system:
Honda devised a system whereby it self-generates its own urea. Why not license it?
GM DOC breakthrough.
That sounds like a real winner --- assuming it actually works outside of the lab, why not license it from GM?
Not that I'm trying to steal Chris's thread, but just adding my experience.
perhaps he has more in site than I since he works directly in the field.
#38
06-01-2010, 02:29 PM
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I have a 78 Scottsdale 3/4 ton with a cadilac 500 and a turbo 400 4 barrel carb and get,manual hubs that I bought off craigs list for 1400 dollars. Can you make me a better deal on a powerstroke??? I also have a 7.5 litre 5 spd with a banks power pack. How many litres is that 2011. Why would we strive for more pulling power in a smaller engine???
#39
06-01-2010, 02:35 PM
To me it seems like Ford only offers manuals in the lower end cars/trucks so that no one will buy them, then they say the take rates are too low and they don't have enough demand to keep making them. Kill two birds with one stone. Steer the customer towards the higher end vehicle with all the upgrades and then make it only come with the higher priced transmission so they have to spend even more money.
Other than the lack of the manual(and v10) my only other complaint is that the 4x4 emblems look like were designed by a 2nd grader. I know the 6.7 took a lot of time to design and probably used up the majority of the budget for the 2011 MY, but at least put some decent decals on it......
#40
06-01-2010, 02:56 PM
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I would like to be the exclusive parts supplier for this truck.......
can we work something out? lol
sweet ride!
I really like where Ford is going with all their products, now if we could only stop having to compete against our own suppliers.... that thought just gives me chills!
ps: Hi Adrian
can we work something out? lol
sweet ride!
I really like where Ford is going with all their products, now if we could only stop having to compete against our own suppliers.... that thought just gives me chills!
ps: Hi Adrian
#41
06-01-2010, 03:04 PM
Various diesel questions
I am curious how well the heads are held down? Whats the useable map range of hte new turbo set up? what about the EGR and cooling system? how has ford adressed the problems of the 6.0 and 6.4 with this new 6.7L
also why did ford build another v8 diesel and not an I6 to compeate with the cummins?
also why did ford build another v8 diesel and not an I6 to compeate with the cummins?
The 6.7L diesel project team incorporated lessons learned from the 6.0L and 6.4L programs. For example, the EGR valve is moved upstream, or to the 'hot side' of the EGR cooler to help reduce the potential for EGR valve sticking. Also, the 6.7L EGR cooler incorporates a 'sliding core' design, which allows the EGR cooler cores to slide back and forth with thermal expansion without stressing critical sealing joints.
Relative to a V8 vs. I6, we preferred the package advantages of the V8 vs. an I6--plus most customers value eight cylinders more than a six-cylinder engine.
#42
06-01-2010, 03:20 PM
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I W O N T have any thing but a manual in anything I drive. Had two 73 mercury capris with 2600 v-6s
#43
06-01-2010, 03:21 PM
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#44
06-01-2010, 03:24 PM
DEF related questions and wiring questions
Software programmed engine shutdowns:
As I understand it, if the vehicle runs out of DEF, it gradually programs for a shutdown of the entire engine.
I understand the need for EPA compliance and so on. But how about a emergency manual override for these "software shutdowns"?
Routinely, problems occur in sensors, wiring, etc. that have nothing to do with a properly functioning system.
When that happens, often, faults are so elusive that fixes cannot be readily had --- a manual override --- with safeguards makes sense.
Wiring / Corrosion Issues
On my 05 vehicles, one major issue is corrosion of wiring and connectors.
Is there any thought to improving the durability of the wiring / connectors --- especially interior wiring that is exposed to road salt from the passengers?
As I understand it, if the vehicle runs out of DEF, it gradually programs for a shutdown of the entire engine.
I understand the need for EPA compliance and so on. But how about a emergency manual override for these "software shutdowns"?
Routinely, problems occur in sensors, wiring, etc. that have nothing to do with a properly functioning system.
When that happens, often, faults are so elusive that fixes cannot be readily had --- a manual override --- with safeguards makes sense.
Wiring / Corrosion Issues
On my 05 vehicles, one major issue is corrosion of wiring and connectors.
Is there any thought to improving the durability of the wiring / connectors --- especially interior wiring that is exposed to road salt from the passengers?
We have had extensive communication with EPA and California Air Resources Board to come up with the warning strategy that we employ to meet the 2010 CY emissions requirements. Bottom-line, we are employing a warning strategy that gradually makes the vehicle less driveable as the urea is depleted without refill per agreement with both government agencies. Our goal is to never strand a customer but still provide sufficient inducement that the customer fixes their truck if it is not compliant with the new emissions standards.
Relative to wiring/connectors, we are always working to improve our standards over time based on customer feedback like yours. We do use waterproof connectors and shielded/wrapped wiring in high water exposure areas, including the lower portion of the passenger compartment where one might expect to see muddy/wet feet and equipment.
#45
06-01-2010, 03:35 PM
I would rather drive a stick shift too and thats what my older trucks have.
My car and newest truck both have an auto. One is over 150,000 and the others over 170,000. How have they " never worked"?
My car and newest truck both have an auto. One is over 150,000 and the others over 170,000. How have they " never worked"?