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  #1  
Old 04-27-2010, 01:43 AM
justshootme84 justshootme84 is offline
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HHO Generator - 2007 SD 6.0L

I've been showing my neighbor some of the HHO threads here and on other truck forums, and he recently bought some plans for a hydrogen generator kit from Run Auto with Water - The #1 HHO Booster Guide - Run Your Car On Water and Increase Fuel Mileage. Download Your HHO Guide Today: Car Run on Water,Cars Run on Water,Cars Running on Water,Convert Car to Run on Water,HHO Booster,Make Your Car Run on Wat. I'm not endorsing, selling or profiting in any way, just posting the site where we got the plans for 3 types of HHO generators. I'm building one for my 98 Z-71 5.7L on gas, his is for a 2007 F-250 PSD 6.0L. So here's some background on that truck and some of the problems we've run into. It's been a really boring, wet winter, so it's something to do. The 2007 F-250 has 166K miles, the 98 Z-71 only has 196K miles, but it sat for 3 years with only a monthly startup and short drivearound. We both drive about 150-200 miles per day. much of that offroad or in 4WD.

After searching and reading threads for weeks, and talking to a few others that have some type of HHO gen on their car/ truck, we came to the conclusion that you need alot of HHO to make any difference in the 6.0L or the 5.7L V8's. Instead of building a simple mason jar with two Stainless Steel bolts, we opted to build a better mousetrap using SS plates and PVC pipe. The design from the RAWW site claims 1.7Liters per minute gas production, using a 12" long x 4" diameter PVC pipe, 18 cheap, low-grade SS wall covers 2.75"x4", some SS hardware, nylon allthread, a bubbler/ scrubber/ spark arrester and hoses plumbed to the intake. The plans refer to this design as a "Smack Booster", and has detailed instructions on how to assemble it and hook it up. It also use KOH or lye to help regulate the amp draw. We found some scrap 316 SS and had the local welding shop cut it into 22 plates that are 3"x6". Some calculations later, we figured this would give about 3.6Lpm of gas. Materials cost about $200. He ordered a MAP sensor dual enhancer gadget from Hydrogen Generators, Boost your MPG and Reduce Emissions off of ebay for $45, which is required to counter the PCM or engine computer with hydrogen kits.

It took 3-4 weeks to get all of these parts together and build the darn thing. First major problem is there's no room for it in the engine bay of his or my truck. I opted to build a smaller unit, his is strapped behind the front grille guard. That has allowed for easy access and "fine tuning", which has taken a few weeks to do. Before turning on the HHO gen, we wired up the MAP DE, and drove around on different settings. Mileage went from 13-17 up to 18-25mpg. All this was doing is leaning out the motor, without any added HHo gas.

Wiring up the generator and running with the DE gadget, mileage is about 18-20 highway. We would drive 30-40 miles, fill up with diesel until it tops off, drive another circuit and fill up. So far, the added HHO has not increased the mileage, and in fact has decreased it slightly. My advice is to change up the DE wiring to the MAP sensor, and do another round of tests. It's currently connected to the 5.0V constant wire, but perhaps should be wired to the signal wire to the PCM. The makers of this device don't even know if it will work on the 6.0L, so we're SOL there.

There have also been issues with 30amp melted fuse holders. There is an ammeter hooked up in the circuit. When turned on, the generator is drawing about 28 amps. The plans call for about 20 amps with the 18 plate setup.The amp draw can be adjusted by adding or removing water or KOH. A higher amp draw over 30a makes more gas, but it quickly melts the wiring on the generator. A lower amp draw than 25a makes very little gas.

Here's the big kicker that's making all of this hard to judge. We can get decent mileage figures on the highway from one gas station to the next, but not for farm use. Farm use gets way less mileage due to long-term idleing, towing and use of 4WD. Averages for that type of driving are from 8.5-11 mpg, mostly right around 10mpg. I think we're going to have to monitor diesel usage by engine hours moreso than mileage. There has not been any noticeable increase in mileage with or without the DE or DE plus HHO in that situation.

My 98 Z-71 is in the same boat, as it sees more farm use than hwy miles every day. I have not hooked anything up to it yet. It's getting 14.5-15.0 mpg hwy, about 11 farm use.
JSM84
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Old 04-29-2010, 12:01 AM
justshootme84 justshootme84 is offline
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Got some results from a driving test tonight. Re-wired the MAP sensor DE device to the middle signal wire on the sensor. Filled up to the neck with diesel, and drove a 30.3 mile leg down the highway to the next filing station. Drove the same 30.3 mi leg with the HHO generator hooked to the intake.

Without HHO = 13.36 mpg, With HHO = 16.06 mpg.

A couple of notes worth mention. The DE was set on Highway mode, at the 2 o'clock position on the dial. This appeared to really lean out the motor and reduce the power alot. It was really hard to hear the motor running over the drone of the tires. WHen we hooked up the line for the HHO, it did not appear to add any power or make any changes in RPM at idle or on cruise control. Tach shows about 1650 RPM's at 55mph, with CC on, no stops and flat road. It's easier to do this at night without any traffic, too.
We both agreed that leaning the motor out this far my even drop the mileage some due to the lack of power. Reset both dials to the 9 o'clock position, where there is a small reduction in power, and will do some more testing in the next few days.
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  #3  
Old 04-29-2010, 02:01 AM
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yeah screw up the mix enough and you'll gain some milage.

till the effects of leaning out that far catch up

the HHO stuff is bunk
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Old 05-01-2010, 05:54 PM
justshootme84 justshootme84 is offline
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Got a couple more mileage tests to report. After disconnecting the battery to clear the engine codes, we drove on the highway about 160 miles. First test with the DE device turned down to 10% was 23.4 mpg, turning it up to 15% got 18.9 mpg. Both were with the HHO generator on and connected to the engine. This is very exciting, since the best hwy mileage we've ever achieved was 16.8 mpg before installing the kit. This is also a big jump from the previous test run at 16.1 mpg. No engine codes or CEL/SES light ever came on like it did on the leaner setting of 60%.
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  #5  
Old 05-03-2010, 12:13 AM
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Impossible for HHO to give you that kind of mileage.

HHO produces 36.16 BTU/gallon at atmospheric pressure.

Diesel produces 124000 BTU/gallon.

So let's say your HHO generator is big enough to produce 3.6LPM, that's just under one gallon of HHO. Do you actually think that small amount of energy content is going to increase mileage by that much? Also factor in how much air a 6.0L diesel consumes in that minute.

Absolutely not. It's physically impossible.
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  #6  
Old 05-05-2010, 04:00 PM
justshootme84 justshootme84 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pocket View Post
Impossible for HHO to give you that kind of mileage.

HHO produces 36.16 BTU/gallon at atmospheric pressure.

Diesel produces 124000 BTU/gallon.

So let's say your HHO generator is big enough to produce 3.6LPM, that's just under one gallon of HHO. Do you actually think that small amount of energy content is going to increase mileage by that much? Also factor in how much air a 6.0L diesel consumes in that minute.

Absolutely not. It's physically impossible.
This is a very common misconception about what the HHO systems are about. The hydrogen gas is mainly being used as a catalyst to the gas/ diesel fuel, not as a 1:1 replacement. I am attempting to use HHO as a supplement instead of propane, CNG, methanol or a list of others.

Why Skeptics are 'Sure' Hydroxy Boosting doesn't Work - pt 1 | Aquauto

And just in case you didn't read all of the first post, I am not selling kits or making a dime from scamming anybody. I am posting my set-up and the problems I encounter. Gathering up the materials, assembly, installation takes a bit of time but is a good cure for cabin fever. Hooking up the kit, not seeing any gains and then throwing it all away is non-productive. But I know that leaning out the engine will in itself burn less fuel, and most or all of the mileage gains will come just from doing that.


Back on the subject of fine-tuning and dealing with the PCM. Many of the threads and articles I've read on HHO and the Ford 6.0L PSD mention that the split-shot injectors reduce or negate any potential mpg ganis from HHO as it is used up in the first pulse. Changing to single-shot injectors may help.
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  #7  
Old 05-05-2010, 06:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by justshootme84 View Post
This is a very common misconception about what the HHO systems are about. The hydrogen gas is mainly being used as a catalyst to the gas/ diesel fuel, not as a 1:1 replacement. I am attempting to use HHO as a supplement instead of propane, CNG, methanol or a list of others.

Why Skeptics are 'Sure' Hydroxy Boosting doesn't Work - pt 1 | Aquauto
False, HHO burns, it is not a catalyst. It does not enhance fuel at all. If you have a large amount of hydrogen, you can actually run an engine on hydrogen alone with no gas or diesel. Problem with doing that is it causes an extremely short engine life.

Generating HHO is known as electrolysis, and is the most inefficient method known to produce hydrogen. The small amount of amps on a typical automotive circuit isn't nearly enough to generate the amount of HHO you would need to boost mileage. A small 4 cylinder engine would need 1500 amps generating an HHO kit to produce a 40% increase in mileage. A typical automotive circuit would only have 15-30 amps. Huge difference. And your website as "proof" actually avoids any scientific study whatsoever. The site actually quotes this "Physicists and engineers will argue this till they are blue in the face." Yeah, the website is a scam. You have to forget all known science in order to buy into this scam.

Quote:
Originally Posted by justshootme84 View Post
And just in case you didn't read all of the first post, I am not selling kits or making a dime from scamming anybody. I am posting my set-up and the problems I encounter. Gathering up the materials, assembly, installation takes a bit of time but is a good cure for cabin fever. Hooking up the kit, not seeing any gains and then throwing it all away is non-productive. But I know that leaning out the engine will in itself burn less fuel, and most or all of the mileage gains will come just from doing that.
If you want to play with HHO, that's fine. But by posting those websites, you're either A) a scammer, or B) have fallen victim of the HHO scam.

Leaning out the engine is just that, leaning it out. There is not enough HHO to make up for the reduced fuel. In addition, diesels (including the 6.0L) do not have a set air/fuel ratio. The throttle pedal controls fueling. If you put foolers on to attempt to lean out the fuel, the end result is you'll need more throttle to make up the difference.

Quote:
Originally Posted by justshootme84 View Post
Back on the subject of fine-tuning and dealing with the PCM. Many of the threads and articles I've read on HHO and the Ford 6.0L PSD mention that the split-shot injectors reduce or negate any potential mpg ganis from HHO as it is used up in the first pulse. Changing to single-shot injectors may help.
In the case of HHO generators, it doesn't matter. There simply isn't enough HHO produced from the amps available on an automotive circuit.

I've done plenty of research on HHO, and I know for a fact that those peddling the kits all attempt to dispel science and use nothing but testimonials to sell their kits.
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Old 05-05-2010, 07:03 PM
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Wow.....I could feel my IQ go down as I read the BS on that site.
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Old 05-05-2010, 10:09 PM
justshootme84 justshootme84 is offline
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Sir Pocket, that link is NOT to my website, just a snippet of some info I found. i do not have a HHO website, or any other kind for that matter. There is a ton of info on the web arguing why this works and why it doesn't, and I could go on all day rebutting you. I take great offense to be indicated as a "scammer", for I am not. I have been an active member of FTE and several other truck forums for many years. JSM84
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Old 05-05-2010, 11:28 PM
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Originally Posted by justshootme84 View Post
Sir Pocket, that link is NOT to my website, just a snippet of some info I found. i do not have a HHO website, or any other kind for that matter. There is a ton of info on the web arguing why this works and why it doesn't, and I could go on all day rebutting you. I take great offense to be indicated as a "scammer", for I am not. I have been an active member of FTE and several other truck forums for many years. JSM84
I believe you missed where I said:

Quote:
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If you want to play with HHO, that's fine. But by posting those websites, you're either A) a scammer, or B) have fallen victim of the HHO scam.
HHO was debunked a long time ago, as all mileage gains through HHO are bare minimum to none. You aren't going to get anyone to believe your mileage gains, because we all know it's impossible for HHO to improve mileage by that much. And it's not because we are "skeptics", it's because we know the science behind it.

I'm not trying to be a dick about it. Just telling it like it is. If you're really a scammer, then I don't care about your feelings. If you're really a victim of the HHO scam, then consider this a wakeup call.
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Old 05-06-2010, 12:29 AM
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Then I will agree that we disagree. If you have any experience with this subject on a Ford 6.0L diesel, good or bad, then I would appreciate any links to that info.
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Old 05-06-2010, 12:33 AM
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a better explanation for the on again off again gains (and continuous loss of power) you get after "tuning" for HHO can be found by doing some research on water injection.

under the right condtions spraying a little water in the intake of a diesel will give you a milage boost, the HHO generators boil over and do just that, but its not controlled so they will reduce the life span of your motor, specialy if they bubble over enough to hydro lock you.
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Old 05-06-2010, 12:37 AM
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of course most of the "gains" come from folks who are "testing" sudenly driving in an efficient fashion instead of holding that skinny pedal to the floor till they reach 85
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Old 05-06-2010, 12:39 AM
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btw that bit about hydrolocking due to the dammed thing bubling over and putting to much water in the intake before the motor started is from experience, it was on an old VW, but I think that motor cost me a lot less than your's will when you kill it
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Old 05-06-2010, 12:57 AM
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Then I will agree that we disagree. If you have any experience with this subject on a Ford 6.0L diesel, good or bad, then I would appreciate any links to that info.
Agree to disagree? Disagree about what? You disagree with the entire scientific and engineering community?
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Old 05-06-2010, 12:57 AM
 
 
 
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