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  #1  
Old 03-23-2010, 05:09 PM
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Question Potassium and sodium in oil?

I just pulled up the UOA results for the oil sample I sent Blackstone last week. They found traces of potassium and sodium and told me that it is most likely due to coolant in the oil. I read that the organic acid technology ELC was not a good mix with the early 99 injector cup sealant AFTER I did the switch. I should have switched back after reading that but didn't. How .
See the third tip in Gooch's coolant flush at this LINK

You would think that if they suspected coolant in the oil, no matter how it got there, there would also be a trace of water, but the sample had zero water. Makes me wonder. Anyone have any thoughts on this? They entered a ? mark in the column next to coolant.

What else could cause traces of potassium or sodium in the oil?
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Old 03-23-2010, 05:44 PM
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I thought when injector cups failed you got oil in the antifreeze? Couldn't this be from the oil cooler?
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Old 03-23-2010, 06:07 PM
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I thought when injector cups failed you got oil in the antifreeze? Couldn't this be from the oil cooler?
When injector cups crack you get fuel in the antifreeze.

Thanks for the oil cooler possibility and something to think about. With only 17 and 19 PPM respectively it is not likely, at least at this time.
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Old 03-23-2010, 06:22 PM
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re

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Originally Posted by PaysonPSD View Post
When injector cups crack you get fuel in the antifreeze.

Thanks for the oil cooler possibility and something to think about. With only 17 and 19 PPM respectively it is not likely, at least at this time.
That's right. Sorry I had a brain fart.
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Old 03-23-2010, 06:25 PM
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Originally Posted by PaysonPSD View Post
You would think that if they suspected coolant in the oil, no matter how it got there, there would also be a trace of water, but the sample had zero water. Makes me wonder. Anyone have any thoughts on this? They entered a ? mark in the column next to coolant.
Robin, don't quote me on this, but at some point in the past I spoke with the fine folks at Blackstone concerning my truck (I always called to discuss the results ) and IIRC, their water test was a "crackle" test. Seriously, like sling some oil on a hot plate and look for water popping. Based on that, I'm not sure how much credence I'd put on them not finding water... just putting that out there. May warrant a call to clarify "how" they test for water.

That's not to besmirch them in anyway. They are an outstanding wealth of good information, and solid tests for the oil... just when it comes to water, if it's there, it's bad. How much isn't really that important.
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Old 03-23-2010, 06:40 PM
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Not much to add other than for trace amounts, you may have boiled the water out driving it. I'll wait for the oil experts to come along and read what they have to say.

How long have you been running the ELC in miles & years?
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Old 03-23-2010, 07:13 PM
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Not much to add other than for trace amounts, you may have boiled the water out driving it. ...

Ding-ding-ding... we have a winner. If the source is coolant and is coming from a small, slow leak, then there is probably plenty of time for the water to vaporize and exit via the CCV route.

... especially given the potential variability inherent in the described "crackle" test.


This crackle test concept makes me wonder, though, because if that is what they are really doing, it is in now way a quantitative test. What is the next level in the results.... from 0, to "Trace", to "Some", to "Lots", to "Mostly"??? I honestly suspect that if they ar eusing a hot plate, then they are weighing the oil before heating, heating (for length of time at a temperature below the oil's point of volatilization), and then weighing the oil again, calculating the difference and reporting it as a ratio (percentage, ppm, etc.)
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Old 03-23-2010, 07:25 PM
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This crackle test concept makes me wonder, though, because if that is what they are really doing, it is in now way a quantitative test. What is the next level in the results.... from 0, to "Trace", to "Some", to "Lots", to "Mostly"??? I honestly suspect that if they ar eusing a hot plate, then they are weighing the oil before heating, heating (for length of time at a temperature below the oil's point of volatilization), and then weighing the oil again, calculating the difference and reporting it as a ratio (percentage, ppm, etc.)
This was some years ago (in the 05' range), so I suspect that method is a precursor to a true test. If you sling some oil on a hot plate, and you get no "crackle", no use in wasting time with the full blown test... on the other hand, if you get some, then probably time to do a real test. Mostly I felt Robin needed more information from them concerning how the sample was tested for water.
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Old 03-23-2010, 07:29 PM
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That's right. Sorry I had a brain fart.
Well hell Grant, I've had so many brain farts today I think I can smell them.

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Originally Posted by CPUNeck View Post
Robin, don't quote me on this, but at some point in the past I spoke with the fine folks at Blackstone concerning my truck (I always called to discuss the results ) and IIRC, their water test was a "crackle" test. Seriously, like sling some oil on a hot plate and look for water popping. Based on that, I'm not sure how much credence I'd put on them not finding water... just putting that out there. May warrant a call to clarify "how" they test for water.

That's not to besmirch them in anyway. They are an outstanding wealth of good information, and solid tests for the oil... just when it comes to water, if it's there, it's bad. How much isn't really that important.
Good info Casper. Thanks. Maybe the pan wasn't hot enough.

Quote:
Originally Posted by F350-6 View Post
Not much to add other than for trace amounts, you may have boiled the water out driving it. I'll wait for the oil experts to come along and read what they have to say.

How long have you been running the ELC in miles & years?
The water boiling off is certainly a possibilty because when I do drive the truck I get it to full operating temp. Hardly ever used for just a quick trip.

A year and 9k with Final Charge ELC.

I might be making a mountain out of a mole hill but when I do the injectors in a couple of weeks I am going to do the cups. After Clay posted about the loaner cup tools I called him. This new Ford cup extractor mounts to the rocker pedestal and has a lever action that extracts the cup without leaving any shavings. It works without a large tap having to be screwed into the cup. It's never as easy as it sounds but it's got to be better then a slide hammer or a steering wheel puller.

Pete,

And I thought they were using some type of sprectrum analyzer.

Thanks for the posts gentleman.
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Old 03-23-2010, 08:26 PM
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Oil cooler...

Its not the cups. Cups would give you fuel in the coolant, not coolant in the oil.
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Old 03-23-2010, 08:46 PM
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When you do the Injector cups..Clays tool works great.

I got the virgin tool to do my cup project.
The only problem with it is the mount was built a tad weak and it broke on the first cup but I was still able use it broken to finish the job.

It uses a mount that bolts to the rocker stands and uses a screw action to remove and install the cups.

If you want a picture of it in action let me know ill post it in a new post with a write up ive been working on.
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Old 03-23-2010, 08:48 PM
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When you do the Injector cups..Clays tool works great.

I got the virgin tool to do my cup project.
The only problem with it is the mount was built a tad weak and it broke on the first cup but I was still able use it broken to finish the job.

It uses a mount that bolts to the rocker stands and uses a screw action to remove and install the cups.

If you want a picture of it in action let me know ill post it in a new post with a write up ive been working on.
I'd like to see it.
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Old 03-23-2010, 08:50 PM
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How much of the stuff we are talking about?
Could be coming from oil or additive?
Now our Audi has oil temperature gauge. Under normal freeway driving it comes to 250F. This is light duty work in the car so probably going way higher in our trucks. No water will survive 250F for long.
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Old 03-23-2010, 09:22 PM
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I'd like to see it.
BIG X2. Please post a pic.
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Old 03-23-2010, 09:40 PM
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The forum wont let me post my thread. It says I have to many pics 124 to be exact although there are only 5 or six. any Ideas never had this problem. When i get it posted ill put a link in this thread.
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Old 03-23-2010, 09:40 PM
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