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1961 - 1966 F-100 & Larger F-Series Trucks Discuss the Slick Sixties Ford Truck

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  #1  
Old 03-19-2010, 11:29 PM
1966_F100 1966_F100 is offline
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1966 f100 351c engine swap.

I have a 1966 f100 with a fmx 3 speed auto tranny. It currently has a a 390 fe motor. I bought a 351c with a 393 stroker kit, it is an aussie 2 bolt main motor. What parts do i need to swap the cleveland for the 390? Will the cleveland work with my tranny? Also how hard will it be?
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Old 03-20-2010, 01:54 AM
banjopicker66 banjopicker66 is offline
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First of all, Welcome to FTE!
As for your swap, the 351C will require the correct bell housing to mate to the current transmission. By the way, if original, your transmission is not an FMX but a COM - Number Dummy will probably cruise right on in and explain the differences.
Next you will require the correct engine perches, Since the 351C was never used in trucks, you won;t be able to use "Ford" mounts, but aftermarket parts or perches used on another Ford engine family might work.
If you have never done this kind of work before, you might want to reconsider the swap for awhile longer and plan it out in more detail.
As for the 390 - have you checked the stroke? 352 and 360 engines transmogrify themselves into 390s on sale day. If original, yours is a 352. 360s did not come out until '68; 390s were not offered in trucks until '68 also.
Best of luck,and you certainly have come to the best place for help!
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Old 03-20-2010, 03:17 AM
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He can use 289 mounts the Cleveland shares motor mounts the all the other small blocks. The exhaust might be tight it has been a while since I have been under the hood of a pre 67, but C is no wider than an FE so it shouldn't be that hard stock car manifolds might work but I would suggest headers because Cleveland manifolds like most other really hold the motor back.
-John
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Old 03-20-2010, 03:19 AM
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Just to add with the kind of power you are putting out you aren't going to want a stock automatic. You might look at a beefed up C4 or C6, I don't know your engine specs but I really can't see some one going to all the trouble to build a 393 thats under 400hp, you would almost have to try.
-John
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Old 03-20-2010, 07:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 1966_F100 View Post
I have a 1966 f100 with a fmx 3 speed auto tranny. It currently has a a 390 fe motor. I bought a 351c with a 393 stroker kit, it is an aussie 2 bolt main motor. What parts do i need to swap the cleveland for the 390? Will the cleveland work with my tranny? Also how hard will it be?
Unless you want high speeds and rpms, the C is a step backwards from the FE as a truck motor. IMHO

Racing might work OK.




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Old 03-20-2010, 08:39 AM
theejohnnyb theejohnnyb is offline
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You may need a pan and oil pump pickup from a 351m-400 for suspension clearance.

The Cleveland is a very versatile engine. In 2v form it will have an excellent rpm range. The 351M-400 engines that are very popular in trucks are long deck Cleveland engines. The original 400s even had smallblock bellhousing patterns like Clevelands. It appears the poster is using a 2v high compression Aussie head. This will provide an excellent all around platform with good to high compression, depending on how it is decked and piston shape, and it will have very good port velocity. I believe stock "cleaned up" 2v heads outflow and outpower the aftermarket edelbrocks. The downfall of the Cleveland was the exhaust port which is very tightly radiused to clear Mustang/Cougar shock towers. They also need one piece valves and many folks bore and bush the lifters to control oil flow at 6500 plus rpms.

The 4v engines can really rev. They will make their best power beginning at 2500 and will easily spin up to 7000. A lot of folks go through the traps with these engines in the 7500 rpm range. Back in the day, Glidden and Roush used to spin up to 9500. The ports and valves on these engines (4v) are huge and largely responsible for the myths of the Cleveland. There are plenty of people building 4vs with impressive torque curves now that stroker configurations are available. The extra cubes of a stroker crank broaden the power curve of these engines down into the lower rpms. Network54 has a superb Cleveland forum site.

Many folks are building 400s now with superb results. These engines had a bad rap, completely unfounded. I think one won the EMC two years ago.

If they see this post on the Cleveland forum they will probably reference it and point out how it perpetuates the "myths". The Cleveland is also not a Midblock, or a smallish big block, another myth. Same bore spacing as any ford small block, just a timing cover cast into the block. These are awesome engines, I have a couple in the garage.

John
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Old 03-20-2010, 08:51 AM
theejohnnyb theejohnnyb is offline
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That 351m-400 pan and pickup should come out of a truck btw.
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Old 03-20-2010, 03:14 PM
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why should you need to change the pan all cars and trucks these years had a front sump.
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Old 03-20-2010, 08:56 PM
theejohnnyb theejohnnyb is offline
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Suspension and or steering clearance depending on what he is doing. It has been an issue in Cleveland swaps in trucks.

Milodon Oil Pan 351M - 400
http://www.ford-trucks.com/forums/12...51m-400-a.html
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Old 03-21-2010, 01:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by theejohnnyb View Post
You may need a pan and oil pump pickup from a 351m-400 for suspension clearance.

The Cleveland is a very versatile engine. In 2v form it will have an excellent rpm range. The 351M-400 engines that are very popular in trucks are long deck Cleveland engines. The original 400s even had smallblock bellhousing patterns like Clevelands.

John
Excellent post about the Cleveland. One nit to pick - the 400 with a small block bolt pattern is very rare, so don't plan on easily picking one up. Also, the Cleveland at about 400 cubes (albeit with aftermarket heads) won the Engine Masters last year, plus 1st, 3rd, 4th, 5th and 6th in 2006 (after which they changed the rules to not allow more than one person to run the same engine type and displacement) and 1st in 2004. Now Popular Hot Rodding made a rule that the winner of EMC has to change BRANDS in order to give the second place Chivy LS9 a chance. The contest is pump gas average power between 2500 and 6500, so these engines are not dyno queens.

Even the 4V Cleveland was a very torquey motor - the Boss 351 made 390 ft-lbs in a recent test by Hot Rod (original specs 370 ft-lbs). That's pretty close to what the 390 FE was spec'ed out at. Now add another 40 cubes to the 351 and guess what might happen? The FE is a very good truck motor though, with heavy, thicker casting than the Cleveland. I would probably run either depending on what I had available.

BTW I also agree that a C6 might be a good choice behind a more modern small block Ford since they are common for that application and will bolt right up.
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Old 03-21-2010, 04:25 PM
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Boss 351 is a Windsor tall deck with 351C heads and a special manifold.

The common 351M/400 engines are boat anchors despite the engine masters. They were junk new and still are junk. They are a derivative of the Cleveland but are not the same. They were designed to be smog compliant and get ford through the mid early 80s until better stuff could be developed.

The 351C was used down under as the primary engine for many years and is a good power builder.

To mount one in a 65 66 you need a set of 302/351M/400 small block perches and 302 truck isolators. It will use a small block bell pattern and use a C4 or C6. The C6 robs substantially more power than the C4.

As for the engine masters 400 it was chosen for cubic inches only and they will tell you that. To build it took cubic money for a bad engine design.

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Old 03-21-2010, 08:50 PM
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i always thought the 65 66 truck had the same frame as 67 79.if it does it will take any front sump motor ford ever built with a ton of clearane.
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Old 03-21-2010, 11:58 PM
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The Boss 351 found in 71 Boss 351 Mustangs is pretty much just the regular 4V Cleveland with a 4 bolt block and a solid cam. The Boss 302 was the hybrid the 351 was all Cleveland.
-John
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Old 03-22-2010, 06:52 AM
banjopicker66 banjopicker66 is offline
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You know, I went through all this change decisions before about my Slick. I think the WOW factor of a 351C just doesn't add up to the dollars you are throwing at it for the cubes you won't get. Instead this is what I would recommend:
Sell the 351C for as much as you can get. It is worth some good money.
Buy a '70s truck with a factory 460 - you can probably get a nice one for less than the selling price of that 351C. You will get far more power much more easily and for a lot less money than what you van get out of the 351C or a 335 series engine.
Harvest everything from the '70s truck for the drivetrain, power brakes, power steering and everything else.
Sell the body parts and make a lot of your money back.
In the end, you will have more power than you know what to do with, and be out a whole lot less money and frustration.
Just my opinion.
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Old 03-22-2010, 08:31 AM
theejohnnyb theejohnnyb is offline
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The 351m and 400s differ from Clevelands in deck height, intake width, and journal sizes. They were "smogged" by keeping the pistons down in the holes, dished pistons and retarded cam timing. I really don't know about boat anchor tech, although the Checkmate's present anchor seems it would be a lot easier to get out of the water. Yes the Boss 351 is all Cleveland.

Yes, the FMX 400 with small block bellhousing pattern is very rare. I should have included that, but no problem on the nit pick. I am glad to have the insight offered. I really like when we get past the bull that folks throw out there and get down to the technical. Thanks for the concise summary on the EMC.

I am offering the pan as an option for builders who look to install various Clevelands into various trucks, please note the qualifier "may" used intentionaly in the first sentence. I have annotated the use of rear sump pans installed in 48-79 trucks (ford made rear sump truck pans in the 70s) for axle clearance or aftermarket suspension and steering clearance. I do not know the particulars of his application and am merely offering him, and others, options.

I agree the C6 takes more power to turn, but it is plenty strong. Many people are willing to take the trade off. I would run the C6 with that combo.

To alleviate headaches buy a brand new F150 and drive that around. It will go faster, be safer, get better mileage, and probably cost less in the end.

You fellas have a great day and pet that dang dog.

John
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Old 03-22-2010, 08:31 AM
 
 
 
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