I posted a generic question in the general auto chat but this question will go best here. To recap for those that didnt see my other post I am thinking about getting a Boss 351 block from Ford Racing when my 351W goes out, it how ever is setup for 351C crankshafts but the block is more or less based off the 351W and summit says the bolt pattern for the bellhousing and engine mounts are 351W/C (not sure if I want to belive them they were wrong bout the autometer gauge question I asked)

But onto the question.

1. The cheapest crankshaft I could find in the stroke I want says its a 2 piece rear main seal, how ever the block is a one piece design. Would a crank for a 2 piece rear main seal interchange with a 1 piece rear main seal block?

2. This same crankshaft says it is designed for 6.00" or longer chevrolet connecting rods, would anyone know if I could run the 5.956" ford connecting rods?

Summit part number for crankshaft is ESP-103523850



I just cant find the information myself, summit doesnt list the main or rod journal sizes for the crankshaft to compare it to the other crankshafts.

So far the crankshaft I am wanting to use if possible is the Eagle Specialty Cast Steel crankshaft with a 3.85" stroke as well as a 28 oz imbalance requiring a 28oz balancer/dampner. This crankshaft has a price tag of $288.95

If anyone knows of a 351C crankshaft with a 3.85" stroke that will work without costing $1,000+ let me know. Btw, I dont need a high hp crank (forged steel one I was looking at with a $1,200 price tag said it was good up to 800 hp which is overkill for something being used on the street) I doubt the engine would make much over 350 hp and 495 trq.



~Update~

I found an article saying that they got "cleveland style" crankshafts which are Windsor cranks with cleveland mains. Couldnt find nothing like that but it did mention SVO cranks such as the 351W SVO is a 351W crank with Cleveland style mains. I dont know if this will work all it says is the block uses 351C mains. But I do see that a Eagle 351W SVO crank has a 2.750" main journal size and the block is listed as having 2.749" (stock 351C size) and the spec sheet says " 2.9415" - 2.9425" " under the main bearing bore size.

If anyone has anything to add to this let me know, I belive this 351W SVO crank will work but I am not sure and I sure would like to eventually get this built.

 

The bellhousing and motor mounts are the same, no you can not use the Ford rods (rod jounal and pin sizes are different). I would try to find a stroker kit because it will be cheaper and components will work together. When you start building stokers you have to make sure the pistons are designed to work with the rods and the stroke to keep the compression height correct. Just to throw this out there for the kind of power you are making that expensive block is kind of a waste of money a stocker will do it just fine. Not sure what those blocks run but probably about as much as the stroker kit. You can run stock 351C cranks in the SVO blocks, but I am not sure how you deal with the two pice rear seal, the difference is really in the block so it should work fine as long as the crank is the same size where it seals.
-John

 

That is what keeping me from going this route so far is the cost. I cant justify the cost for the performance. How ever I did find out about SVO crankshafts and found a 351W SVO crankshaft with the 2.750" main journal size in a 4.25" stroke. Not sure if the parts are all matched just right but using that crank with a 5.956" connecting rod and a 1.365" compression heigth dished piston I can get a deck clerance of 0.064" at TDC and a compression ratio of 8.9:1. Only upside is the trq is around 530 ft lbs at 2500 rpm, hp on the other hand is around 330 at 4,000. That would work fine for the heavy car with the 2.50:1 axle ratio. Only thing is so far I have only got the price knocked down from $8,500 total down to $7,500 total.

But as you said though block is probably too much but the price tag for the block is $1,800 and I dont know what a Ford replacement 351W block would run me just incase I couldnt rebuild my current 351 without having to go oversize on the pistons and everything.

But it comes back though instead of me redesigning a late 70`s smog engine for performance this block would allow me to run a 380 - 427 cubic inch engine without having to do all this complicated modifications for a swap like my orignal idea few years back of transplanting a 460 inplace of the 351. In the end I dont know I might just end up rebuilding this engine back oem with a dual pattern xtreme energy cam from comp cams. I do know part of me would like this upgrade considering it would be a drop in not to mention the power it would make compared to the smogged stocker specs of 145hp and 200trq. Just cant justify so far the cost of even $7500, going to check some other places in the morning see if I could reduce the cost down even more but I doubt it.

 

Wow $7500 is high, CHP has the 3.85 kit starting at $1200, even with the new block you should be able to stay under $7500 unless you have a super charger or some turbos in the works. Heck CHP has a complete carb to pan 435hp 393 for $8500.
-John

 

It is high. This is roughly what I got so far

1. Boss 351 Block 9.510" deck heigth $1899.99
2. Keith Black Forged Pistons 4.000" Bore $461.99
3. Eagle SIR I Beam Connecting rods $299.95
4. Eagle Forged 4340 Steel Crankshaft 1 or 2 piece rear main seal 4.25" stroke $659.95
5. Ford Racing GT-40 heads aluminumg 64cc $959.90 a pair
6. Edelbrock Performer intake manifold $199.95
7. Holley mechanical Fuel pump $89.95
8. Holley 4160 600cfm 4V $269.88
9. Hooker Super Comp headers full length $439.95
10. Accel Performance Replacement Dist vac adv. $239.95 (could just get a OEM replacement instead for $80ish)
11. Flow Kooler High Vol water pump $89.88

Thats basically how things are then its $917.35 for the roller rockers, composite dist gears, rocker arm studs, pushrods, valve springs, and hyd roller cam and lifter kit. Which I would have to see if I could save money buying the whole kit which means i will have parts that I dont need such as the timing set the Boss 351 block comes with the timing set. But the biggest value item would be those GT40 heads that are one of two recomended for the block. I could possibly save money though dropping the Accel performance replacement dist and just get a oem dist since I planned on using the stock ignition box. Could also drop the headers at $440 and get some stocker exhaust manifolds but I dunno if that would hender performance or not. I know ive had lots of people saying exhaust manifolds will improve trq over large tube headers, which trq is what I would need in a 4,000 lb vehicle with a 2.50:1 axle ratio.

But now that you mention it though I should check summit and see if they got a rotating assembly kit for a 351W SVO. If so then as you said I might be able to save money on getting the crank/rods/pistons than buying seperate.

 

a 4.25" stroke crank is gonna need a serious long connecting rod for the pistons to clear the counterweights, you might want to verify the minimum recommended con rod length for that crank. it's likely that the con rod length will require a very expensive custom piston if it's possible at all?

BTW, using a stock Cleveland crank in a Windsor design block will leave you without an off the shelf timing set, the crank to cam distances and the crank snout diameters are different. there are custom sets to use Windsor snout cranks with Cleveland mains in a Cleveland block but there are none to use a Cleveland crank in a Windsor block. it could be easily done though by either honing the diameter of the crank spocket a few thou's larger, or turning down the cranksnout diameter to Windsor size and removing the spacer section from the crank. basically creating a Windsor snout on a Cleveland crank, which would gain nothing over using an aftermarket cast Windsor crank with Cleveland mains

also, many times a 'complete' stroker kit will not actually be assemble-able. lots of guys find that the crank counterweights and the pistons interfere with piston/rod/crank combo as supplied from the vendor. they don't ever actually assemble the components. then the balance job is gone and needs to be redone after corrections are made for piston/counterweight clearance

 

Yep I am not 100% sure, summit isnt the best at help I know that from experiance. All I know is that 4.25" stroke isnt what I want I will gladly go with any stroke crank from 3.85" up to 4.25" max. I might even go with 3.50" stroke crank which Eagle does carry in a SVO style with 2.75" mains for $659.95 price tag. I know a 3.50" stroke crank will work with a 5.956" rod and should have clearance. But part of me feels it would be a waste to take and stick with 351 cubic inches when the block is capable of supporting 460 cubic inches.

I will how ever check in the morning on a 3.50" stroke crank and see. Will also check on a camshaft kit that is non roller and see how much less it would be for that as well. But odds are the rod would have to be atleast 6.250" to clear the counter weights on the crank. A 4.100" stroke had 6.250" rod listed on summits site same as 6.200" for a 4" stroke 5.956" for 3.85" and strangely 6.125" for 3.75", then again comes back to how much trust should I put in summit and their specifications.

 

"Ford Racing GT-40 heads"... really suck compared to what you're considering building, i thought maybe you were planning on using a Cleveland style head

so you're actually building a Windsor?

 

Thats what Ford Racing recomended for the block. as far as the block goes its a mix of 302/351W/351C designs. Has 351C mains but most of the other specs are of Windsor style.

 

Your bottom end is whats killing you that $1200 kit for and the 351W block you already have will replace $3357.88 of your build, it also comes with bearings and piston rings. I think you can build what you want for less, a lot of the big dollar parts like your block are totally over kill for your build, the Cleveland size main is used because the Windsor starts melting bearings north of 7K rpms but it doesn't sound like thats what you have planned. But wow do these parts add up quick. Check with the guys over on the 302/351W forum they know these things a lot better than I do. Here is the link to the kit if you want to check it out, they offer just about any piston combo you could ever want just picked this one because it was fist on the list. 10670-SF-F393W - Ford 393W Flat Top -4.0cc Street Fighter Engine Kit
-John

 

Just to clarify your first post, the 351w block and the 351c block have the same bellhousing bolt pattern as the 289,302. Even if they are not in the same engine family. 351w(small block) and 351c (335 series with the 351m and 400) that both 351m/400 share the big block (429/460 bolt patern in the 385 series) The only block that share the small bell in the 335 series is the 351c. I guess Ford like to complicate it.

 

Yep and ford racing really complicated it with this Boss 351 block which is using 351C mains, and 302-351w heads, and 351W manifolds,ect.

Was the #1 thing that had me confused cause the photos look like the boss 351 block from ford racing would bolt in but like usual Ford Racing doesnt provide any specifications that are needed. The heads they recomend are plain 302-351W heads so I am thinking hell maybe I can get some cheaper cast iron heads, after all compression shouldnt go over 9.61:1 and even then with the 3.85" stroke I could up it to a 11cc dished piston to drop it down to 9.06:1 even if need be.



Yep it would be over kill RPM wise, then again the aftermarket gauges I picked out for the car are kinda overkill as well I dont need a 8,000 rpm tach when it wont go past 4500 but Autometer doesnt offer a 6,000 rpm tach in the "American Muscle" series. But on the RPM bit, I dont know what rpm range the engine would operate at when floored considering stock shifts out of passing gear at 4500 rpm, I dont really need a high rpm engine. Only thing that sold me on this block was the screw in core plugs and the fact that it was a new block. If I could find a new 351 block for less I would go with that as the backbone of a build, I dont think I would want to trust taking a late 70`s smog block and try to squeeze more trq and hp out of it espeically considering I keep hearing they are weaker castings than the early 70`s blocks. I will how ever check out that link you provided though.

~Update~

When looking at the link you provided I thought of my old PAW catalog I have from Spring 2007. Well to make a long story short I could save alot of money by going with this kit. Only thing is I never bought a engine block kit from PAW let alone anything form PAW. Dont know if their stuff is any good but heres the link

https://secure.pawengineparts.com/420W_Ford.html

Basically I can get a 420 CID displacement in this kit with heads for $3,295.00. Only thing I am not too fond of is the use of chevy connecting rods, I am against mixing parts like that but oh well I guess if I want a trqy engine for this heavy car I will have to make a descision, spend $7500 for a overkill block or get a block kit for $2,395 including heads. I will have to call them later on when it is closer to this old engine going out, might be able to get them to swap in some other parts I would prefer (example would be the gapless piston rings from total seal).