Can I go WVO now?

[RICHNTHED]

Hey Folks, I’m new to here, and I got a question, I have a 1993 F250 7.3L and I want to Run WVO in it. I filtered some and ran about 7 gallons threw it. Burn it with no problem. Can I continue like this just filtering it and putting it in and going, or do I need to make some mods.

[fabmandelux]

Originally Posted by RICHNTHED

Hey Folks,
I’m new to here, and I got a question, I have a 1993 F250 7.3L and I want to Run WVO in it. I filtered some and ran about 7 gallons threw it. Burn it with no problem. Can I continue like this just filtering it and putting it in and going, or do I need to make some mods.

The short answer, yes. BUT, you will have to mod your truck. WVO needs to be filtered, dewatered first. You'll need to have a two tank system. The first tank is for starting and stopping your truck on regular diesel. Tank #2 needs to be heated, all WVO fuel lines need to be heated. Burning unheated WVO will distroy your engine over time. Unheated WVO causes injector coking, and sever cylinder wear. If you click on the Sponser link at the top of the forum you can find all the info you need for using WVO. The link is for "Vegistroke" The BEST system on the market IMHO. Here is a link to more info: http://www.ford-trucks.com/forums/78...o-systems.html

Once you have 25 posts you can use the forum search feature. This forum has TONS of good posts about burning WVO.

[RICHNTHED]

The truck has the factory two tank system. Can I work with that? Also I heard that you don’t need a heater if you mix it with a little Diesel in the tank 90%wvo/10%Diesel blend.

[fabmandelux]

Originally Posted by RICHNTHED

The truck has the factory two tank system. Can I work with that? Also I heard that you don’t need a heater if you mix it with a little Diesel in the tank 90%wvo/10%Diesel blend.

Your twin tank system will work. Mixing WVO and D2 is not a good idea, unless you don't care how long your engine lasts.

You really only have two options. Make a good quality biodiesel, or use a heated VWO system. Unheated WVO will ruin a diesel engine.

[z scpaes]

I'd like more information....Why is blending WVO and #2 not a good Idea? What about Blending RUG and WVO 20/80? I wouldn't go 90/10 as suggested and I would heat the fuel in either case.

[kyhiboy]

Originally Posted by z scpaes

I'd like more information....Why is blending WVO and #2 not a good Idea? What about Blending RUG and WVO 20/80? I wouldn't go 90/10 as suggested and I would heat the fuel in either case.

WVO will cause engine failure!!!!!!!!!!


This link will answer all your questions on how to process WVO so it can be used in a modern Diesel engine

[FN74]

[quote=kyhiboy;8483221]WVO will cause engine failure!!!!!!!!!!



And on what do you base this FACT? Are you implying that engines run only on diesel never fail?. I have customers that have been using WVO in combination with their OEM diesel system for over 4 years and several of them at over 100,000 miles on oil. And not one engine failure.

To qualify- WVO done wrong can and will quickly destroy your engine. If that was your intent, then I apologize. WVO used responisbly with a poper setup, correct engine temperature, and good filtering will not cause any adverse side effects on the engine.

[FN74]

Originally Posted by z scpaes

I'd like more information....Why is blending WVO and #2 not a good Idea? What about Blending RUG and WVO 20/80? I wouldn't go 90/10 as suggested and I would heat the fuel in either case.

Blending Diesel with WVO is a great idea, but not necessarily in your stock fuel system. In order for this to be succesful you need to experiment with your mixtures and temperatures. Every mixture is going to react differently based on the type of oil, quality of oil, use of oil, age of oil, formulatiopn of diesel, and outside temperatures. There are a lot of variables to keep control of. If you absolutely have to mix in your stock tank do this:

1. Ensure WVO is filtered down to better than 10 micron absolute
2. Make sure WVO passes hot pan test.(water)
3. Make a 50/50 mixture on a glass or plastic jar then chill in a refridgerator down to about 10 degrees colder then the absolute coldest temperature your turck will possibly see.
4. Inspect the Mixture. If it is cloudy at all, then you need to thin the mixture more with diesel.
5. Repeat steps 3 and 4 until you have a mixture that remains perfectly clear at the chilled temperature. That will be the minimum mixture strength you can use with reasonable confidence that your truck filters will not plug up, and that the viscosity will not be too thick for the injection pump.


Keep in mind though that is a rule of thumb, and if your diesel formulation or source/type of oil changes you will need to do this over.

It is very important that you pre-mix before putting into the tank. Simply pumping oil in top of diesel does not ensure a good mixture and leaves the very likely possiblity of getting a high concentration of WVO. If shut down on that and then started this can lead to a busted injection pump, plugged filter, ruined lift pump, etc.

Or you can use a completely self contained heated second fuel system so you don't have to worry about any of this. And there are cost effective but viable ways of doing this. Good Luck!

[kyhiboy]

[quote=FN74;8484849]

Originally Posted by kyhiboy

WVO will cause engine failure!!!!!!!!!!



And on what do you base this FACT? Are you implying that engines run only on diesel never fail?. I have customers that have been using WVO in combination with their OEM diesel system for over 4 years and several of them at over 100,000 miles on oil. And not one engine failure.

To qualify- WVO done wrong can and will quickly destroy your engine. If that was your intent, then I apologize. WVO used responisbly with a poper setup, correct engine temperature, and good filtering will not cause any adverse side effects on the engine.

Read this from the Engine Manufactures Association:

DATED: March 2006
EMA European Office, C.P. 65, CH-1231 Conches, Switzerland
Telephone : +41 22 784 3357 Facsimile +41 22 784 3349
EMA is a Non Governmental Organization in Special Consultative Status with the Economic and Social Council of the United Nations
Two North LaSalle Street
Suite 2200
Chicago, Illinois 60602
Tel: 312/827-8700
EngineManufactures.org Fax: 312/827-8737
Use of Raw Vegetable Oil or Animal Fats in Diesel Engines
Recently, raw vegetable oils and animal fats have increasingly been substituted for
“processed” biodiesel meeting established specifications.1 The U.S. Department of Energy has
stated that, “Raw or refined vegetable oil, or recycled greases that have not been processed into
biodiesel, are not biodiesel and should be avoided.”2 The use of raw, unprocessed vegetable oils
or animal fats in diesel engines – regardless of blend level – can have significant adverse effects
and should not be used as fuel in diesel engines.
Raw or refined vegetable oil, or recycled greases have significantly different and widely
varying properties that are not acceptable for use in modern diesel engines. For example, the
higher viscosity and chemical composition of unprocessed oils and fats have been shown to
cause problems in a number of areas: (i) piston ring sticking; (ii) injector and combustion
chamber deposits; (iii) fuel system deposits; (iv) reduced power; (v) reduced fuel economy and
(vi) increased exhaust emissions. Use of unprocessed oils or fats as neat fuels or blending stock
will lead to excessive fuel condensation and corresponding dilution of the engine’s lubricating
oil that may result in sludge formation. Any or all of these conditions may result in reduced
engine life, increased maintenance costs, or catastrophic engine failure. More over, the problems
associated with the use of raw vegetable oil or animal fat may not become evident until a
significant amount of damage has occurred over an extended period.
The significantly higher viscosity of raw vegetable oils (27 - 54 mm2/s) compared to
petroleum diesel fuel (2.6 mm2/s) alters fuel injector spray patterns and spray duration, adds
stress on fuel injection systems, and results in incomplete combustion and high dilution of the
engine lubricating oil. In turn, fuel injector spray pattern, duration, etc. affect the combustion
process and the resulting engine performance and emissions levels. This incomplete combustion
increases fuel dilution of engine lubricating oil and leads to sludge development. In addition, the
polymerization of glycerides in raw vegetable oils and animal fats during the combustion process
results in undesirable deposits on pistons, piston rings, fuel injectors, valves, etc. It is important
to note that such effects may not be immediate, but occur over a period of weeks or months
depending on engine use and fuel system design.
Finally, raw or refined vegetable oils and animal fats experience significant degradation
due to oxidation compared with petroleum diesel fuels. Such oxidation leads to sludge formation
in the storage or vehicle fuel tank, which, in turn, can plug fuel filters and prevent fuel delivery
to the engine’s combustion chamber. This oxidation reaction is accelerated by exposure to heat
which can be due to solar effects or fuel recirculation in the engine’s fuel delivery system.
1 Biodiesel, or B100, is a term defined by the United States Department of Energy (DOE) as, “A biodegradable transportation fuel for use in
diesel engines that is produced through the transesterfication of organically-derived oils or fats.” ASTM International, a recognized standardsetting
organization, has adopted “Standard Specification for Biodiesel Fuel (B100) Blend Stock for Distillate Fuels” (D6751), which defines
the minimum performance parameters required for biodiesel to be considered acceptable as a blending stock for distillate fuels. Similarly,
European Committee for Standards (CEN) has adopted “Automotive Fuels. Fatty Acid Methyl Esters (FAME). Requirements and Test
Methods,” EN 14214 which defines minimum performance parameters for biodiesel to be utilized as either a neat fuel or as a blending stock
for distillate fuels.
2 U.S. Department of Energy; Biodiesel Handling and Use Guidelines, revised November 2004

http://www.biodiesel.org/pdf_files/f...ts/ema_svo.pdf

[z scpaes]

Thanks FN74, I'm with you. I'll filter down to 1 micron and will run a heated filter and an inline fuel heater just before the pump. I'm still putting together my filtering station and the quality of oil I'm getting is very good from what I can tell. I don't know about the "pan test" can you send me more info? I'm very aware of testing my mix for cloudiness and I have a stainless mixing setup for blending 300 gallons at a time, once I figure my blend ratio out (in a small batch) I've been reading and planning this for a while and I wouldn't dare jump into blending without learning how first. thanks again for some poistive feedback on this subject

[fabmandelux]

"Pan Test": Put enough of your oil in a shallow steel pan (frying pan works great!) and heat it over the boiling point of water (212 f) and watch the oil. If you see bubbles form you have water in your oil that will have to be removed.

[binuya]

Another method for testing water content is the 'weigh-heat-weigh' method, if you want to be more precise with it and know what quantity of moisture is in your wvo. I use this method since I do a glycerine pre treatment of my wvo. In doing this, there will be some methanol present in my wvo, so the hot pan test will give off bubbles from that.

Take a good representative sample of your wvo, 1-2 ounces. Weigh a small heat resistant plastic container, write down the weight of that container. Pour in your wvo sample, weigh it to get a total weight. Subract the container weight to get the wvo 'original' weight. Now heat the sample to about 230-240 degrees F in a microwave. Gently swirl the container to speed evaporation of any moisture,allowing it to cool down for 2-3 minutes. Weigh it again. Subtract the weight of the container from that to get your 'de-watered' weight. Now subtract the de-watered weight from the original wvo weight to get the water weight. To get a percentage of water, divide the water weight by the original wvo sample weight, and multiply by 100.

For making biodiesel I shoot for no greater than 1-1.5% water. Not sure what the limits are for SVO users. You would be surprised to see how much suspended moisture there can be in what appears to be clear oil.

[z scpaes]

Binuya, You've obviously bought much better scales than me. I'll be sure to manage my water content, one method or another. How long do you guys let your finished product settle before use?

[FN74]

[quote=kyhiboy;8485608]

Originally Posted by FN74

Read this from the Engine Manufactures Association:

kyhiboy- My hats off to you. At least you are able to reasonably substantiate your statement. Most who make the "destroy your engine claim" back it up with either "because it will" or my "friends sisters 1985 mercedes with 675,000 miles on the engine was running on a single tank unfiltered WVO system and toasted the engine."

However that is where my concession ends. Problem with most studies and reports is that they reflect the intent of the person writing/financing the study. And it is obvious from this study that the publisher wanted to impose a negative overall feeling about WVO/SVO as fuel.

The part of the report you published is so vague on the study controls it is to the point of almost being useless.

1. What engine/s what this study performed on?
2. Was the engine properly broke in?
3. What type of injection system does this engine have?
4. How many miles/hours was the test performed for?
5. Under what loading conditions was this study completed?
6. Was engine failure actually observed?
7. What types of oils were used?
8. Was this engine started and shut down using diesel like most modern WVO systems?
9. If they did mix, at what concentrations did they mix?
10. How much bleed by was observed into the enigne oil?
11. How much MORE engine oil contamination was there when using SVO vs diesel
12. What was the negative impact of engine oil contamination?
13. Was the engine oil changed at the manufacturers recomended interval?
14. Did the engine oil contamination cause excessive internal engine and bearing wear?
15. How much was the wear beyond the equivalent tested engine under the same conditions?
16. Exactly how much engine life was reduced?
17. What was the specific vicosity of the oil being used when introduced at combustion chamber temoperatures?
18. Was the injector spray pattern observed at engine temperature or at room temperature like most injector spray pattern machines operate?
19. Exactly how much was engine life reduced? more then 10%?
20. Does biodiesel require no storage considerations over normal #2?


I could go on for quite a while. It is apparent to me that the conclusions reached in this study were heavily influenced a Pro-Biodiesel comittee.

A famous quote goes something like this “Once you eliminate the impossible, whatever remains, no matter how improbable, must be the truth.”

No matter how improbable, what remains is that many people have used SVO successfully for extended periods of time with little to no engine problems when done responsibly. Regardless of the findings of that study, their conclusions are not accurate.

I probably have about 20 customers who now have over 100,000 miles on oil. With their original engine. One customer in particular has over 100,000 on oil, and over 300,000 total. Original engine and injectors. And there are even a few 6.0's in there.

I am not saying this study is compltely wrong, but some points made may be of little to no significance.

Example- engine oil contamination. That is a normal part of a healthy engine. ALL engines have some minimal amount of fuel contamination in the engine oil from ring leakage. So is this "wvo" contamination even an issue when factory recommended oil change intervals are followed?

If engine life is reduced, By how much? are we talking half or maybe only a few %? ANd once you get into high mileage engines maintenance history can not be overstated enough. So for example, if the expected engine life is 350,000 miles and it only lasts 275000 miles is that due to WVO or poor maintenance? What about the engine that only lasted 250,000 miles on diesel only?

Before ever making a business of this I personally had my injectors inspected every 30,000 miles, pulled my heads off at 60,000 miles and did regular Blackstone Oil Reports. I will have to do some digigng, but will post those results.(Hard drive crash a few years ago wiped out most of my early records and reports) Maybe some of you who have been around a while can help me with some links to that stuff that is enevitably floating around on the web?

The injectors were better then expected, the pistons and valves did not have ANY buildup, let alone excessive buildup, and the Blackstone was perfect.

And okay, what if in general, WVO causes early engine failure. Lets do some quick math:

Being very conservative here: Say you only get 200,000 miles from an engine that should last 300,000. And half or 100,000 miles is on oil that you pay .25/gn to filter/collect etc. If you get 15mpg, for that 200,000 miles on oil you would have used 13,333 gallons of fuel. If you figure diesel at ~$2.75/gn (estimated average over last 5 years) that is $36,666 spent in fuel!! Now say half of that was fuel that you only paid .25/gn for. Your new diesel bill is $18,331, WVO bill is $1,666 for a grand total of $19,975.50. Okay, you just saved $16,960.50!! Again this is very conservative numbers. And making an inaacurate assumption that your diesel engine will only last 200,000 miles. More likely then not, savings will exceed $20,000.

Oh yeah- Emissions. Regardless of how incompletely it burns, WVO contains 0 sulfer and is 100% completely carbon nuetral.

Well I am late getting home, gotta run! The Wife will wait, but the beer won't!

[willbd]

Running WVO is not a issue with a good fuel source and heated system.

Read this links below.

New fish oil-diesel blend could benefit rural villages





"The energy content of fish oil is about 90 percent of that of No. 2 diesel, which is a common fuel," Steigers said. "So it's right up there. It's actually smoother combustion and more efficient."

Initial tests showed no ill effects to the 12-cylinder, 4,000-horsepower Fairbanks-Morse generator engine, plus significantly lower emissions for particulate, carbon monoxide and sulfur dioxide. More important, the fishy fuel cost almost a $1 per gallon less than the diesel it replaced.

http://www.akenergyauthority.org/PDF...FishOilv01.pdf