Another electrical/wiring question
#16
12-27-2009, 01:49 PM
Post Fiend
Joe,
Last note: If you've got a good 6V generator and regulator and all your bulbs are 6V as well, then I'd leave it 6V unless you're going to be driving it daily or at night often. The 6V system is just as reliable as a 12V system when it's kept up. Anybody that says otherwise either doesn't understand the minor differences in a 6V charging system and doesn't know how to fix it or they're just too lazy to keep it maintained so it operates at peak efficiency. Staying 6V is a lot less work, too. No dropping resistors to mess with for your guages, heater, etc. All my old tractors are still 6V. I cranked my 860 up the other night to plow off the driveway when it was 17 degrees. She sleeps outside and hasn't been touched in over a month. It popped off on about the second revolution. Food for thought!
Last note: If you've got a good 6V generator and regulator and all your bulbs are 6V as well, then I'd leave it 6V unless you're going to be driving it daily or at night often. The 6V system is just as reliable as a 12V system when it's kept up. Anybody that says otherwise either doesn't understand the minor differences in a 6V charging system and doesn't know how to fix it or they're just too lazy to keep it maintained so it operates at peak efficiency. Staying 6V is a lot less work, too. No dropping resistors to mess with for your guages, heater, etc. All my old tractors are still 6V. I cranked my 860 up the other night to plow off the driveway when it was 17 degrees. She sleeps outside and hasn't been touched in over a month. It popped off on about the second revolution. Food for thought!
So, I'm going to quote this statement from "Battery Low in Charge" troubleshooting procedure in the 1949-1951 Frod Truck Shop Manual - Page 351, as food for thought - again - quote:
<CENTER>"If the resistance (voltage drop) is equal to or less than that specified in the test [External circuit resistance test for low battery], the battery is low in charge due to improper operation by the owner. Excessive night driving or use of accessories, insufficient operation of the vehicle, accidental discharge of the battery (lights, ignition, radio, etc. left on overnight), improper starting procedure (flooding engine, not using choke properly, etc), or too heavy a grade of motor oil for the local climate could take more current from the battery than the generator can replace. Instruct the owner in proper operation of his vehicle."</CENTER>
End quote!
...."Too heavy a grade of motor oil for the local climate........" Yes, it's that marginal.
The 6 volt system was designed to run the ignition system and the lights on the truck - that's all - and just like Joe's tractor - no electrical peripherals. And the above quote was suggested for a truck in that configuration. That indicates a 6 volt system that is marginal at best. If you want to keep the truck in it's original state and start it up from time to time and drive it in the daytime to keep the battery charged, it will service you just fine as stated.
BUT:
If you add a heater with an electric motor (which was an option on the truck), a right side tail tight (which was optional), or electric windshield wipers (optional), a radio (optional), electric fuel pump, electric fans, tow a trailer with lights, drive at night (lights on) - in the cold (heater or defroster on) in the rain (wipers on), then after an hours worth of driving, you are going to be sitting on the side of the road, at night, in the cold and rain with a dead battery - period.
And even if you do get a jump start, the generator on the truck WILL NOT drive the ignition to keep the truck running if the battery is dead. In other words it's gonna turn right around and die on you again about 5 minutes after you jump it. IOW, you're screwed - tow it home!
That's why, despite the expense and manufacturing costs of upgrading, the auto makers started using 12 volt electrical systems starting in 1956.
If you are going to drive this truck, and put necessary (maybe even required by law in some places) electrical appliances on it, you're going to have to convert it to 12 volt - period.
And whether or not you want to believe that my orientation "either doesn't understand the minor differences in a 6V charging system and doesn't know how to fix it or they're just too lazy to keep it maintained so it operates at peak efficiency"- is entirely up to you.
The differences are not minor when it comes to performance. And the conversion is not complex enough nor baseborned enough to preclude doing it.
Planning on driving the truck at night for more than an hour or two? Be sure to take the cell phone with you to call AAA (but don't charge it in the truck)
Sorry Joe, don't mean to be argumentive. But I do understand the discussion and the differences - just absolutely, and completely! And I think that the average driver and restorer needs to seriously consider a 12 volt system.
#17
12-27-2009, 02:46 PM
Julie, I do appreciate your comments and advice, and yes I have planned all along to replace all of the wiring. Because the wiring is so basic, I felt that a self wire was a better idea than a pre-made harness with too many extra wires. I still have not decided if I want to go to 12V, but if I stay with 6V, I will probably add a 6V alternator or see if the local starter shop an increase the generator output that will provide enough power to alleviate the low power concerns.
Believe me, when I am ready for that project, I will be seeking your advise and help.
Joe, (BOR) I still don't get any resistance with the center post on either coil, perhaps I just haven't figured out how to get a good contact on it. Now, with the jumper wire from the battery connected, and the points open, I now get 6.38V on each post. I also have spark at the plugs, however, I don't know how much power is really there. Julie makes some excellent points about this whole wiring system, it is a mess and needs to be replaced. I wanted to get the truck running again so that I can get a read on the generator output and also try to get a check of the regulator to see just how they are performing. I will probably have to just change it to 12V even though, I don't really intend to add any other electrical components to the truck. It still has the stock 6V headlights, parking lights and tail light, but it had turn signals added along with extra lights on the back. I suspected that it may have been 12V, but since it is + ground and still has the 6V generator and regulator I sure am confused. I checked and it has a 12V flasher in it and the headlights are much dimmer, even with a fully charged 6V battery. Trying to follow the wires on this spaghetti monster, I found
THIS
hooked into the wire harness between the light switch and the firewall. I have not seen anything like this in any wiring schematics. Anybody have a clue what this is? Could it be an old voltage reducer?
Believe me, when I am ready for that project, I will be seeking your advise and help.
Joe, (BOR) I still don't get any resistance with the center post on either coil, perhaps I just haven't figured out how to get a good contact on it. Now, with the jumper wire from the battery connected, and the points open, I now get 6.38V on each post. I also have spark at the plugs, however, I don't know how much power is really there. Julie makes some excellent points about this whole wiring system, it is a mess and needs to be replaced. I wanted to get the truck running again so that I can get a read on the generator output and also try to get a check of the regulator to see just how they are performing. I will probably have to just change it to 12V even though, I don't really intend to add any other electrical components to the truck. It still has the stock 6V headlights, parking lights and tail light, but it had turn signals added along with extra lights on the back. I suspected that it may have been 12V, but since it is + ground and still has the 6V generator and regulator I sure am confused. I checked and it has a 12V flasher in it and the headlights are much dimmer, even with a fully charged 6V battery. Trying to follow the wires on this spaghetti monster, I found
THIS
hooked into the wire harness between the light switch and the firewall. I have not seen anything like this in any wiring schematics. Anybody have a clue what this is? Could it be an old voltage reducer?
#18
12-27-2009, 03:27 PM
Post Fiend
Oh my LORD!!!!! ARRRRRRGGGGGG!
I was just being sarcastic about the "unknown part up under the dash" or "aircraft part forced to work" but, LOL you may have found it anyway!
I wonder how many or what else there is?
If you have a shop manual, there is a procedure for bench testing the generator. No shop manual? - it's time mon frier! E-bay!
Also the 6 volt alternator isn't a bad idea. They make them to look just like your generator if you are looking for the stock look. Two good things about going alternator: First is it will have a higher output (70 amps minimum for an alternator while your generator is rated at 35 amps) and second, but most important, is an alternator will deliver full output at much lower rpms. Your generator has to be turning at 1100 rpm to produce enough amps to suffice (and it idles at what, 650?).
Now I'm serious - take it ALL OUT like you wanted too. OYE VEY!
I also prefer to rewire one strand at a time and bundle/harness when complete. I find it provides a neat job, plus by the time you are done, you "KNOW" your electrical system and your signal flow. And yes, it's really pretty simple when you just use one wire (connect the dots) at a time. I'm not a big fan of premade harnesses (personal preference), but alot of the guys here like the EZ wire set up.
I have a full set of Power Point rewiring diagrams I made to use for my rewire - some of them are just for my stuff (Tilt front actuator, etc), but over a time, I have drawn drawings that are generic for folks here and they are in the album. I may have a couple I haven't imported yet.
You can see JPEG copies in my #4 album titled "Electrical Drawings" and if you would like I will send you the Power Point files to use or modify for your own rewire. Nice thing about them is if you do that as you go (like modify to your color wires), when you are done you have an exact, readable, and custom color electrical diagram for your truck.....I printed mine on photo papaer and laminated them, then put them in my handbook in the glove box.
They are VERY Useful when I blow a fuse (from being to lazy to disconnect the battery when I'm working) or if I want to add or trouble shoot (I had a wire chaffe that I put in a bad spot - took me about a minute it isolate). If you want to take a look in the gallery and send me a PM/E-mail with your real e-mail address and I'll send them.
PS It sounds like the instructions BOR gave you to bypass your existing wiring and wire direct tothe ignition system is working out for you (jeez, ya think) If you get spark at the plugs then you should be in business. Start it and Run it with caution - have a fire extinguisher available - serious!
Welcome to the world of the PO (Previous Owner)!
I was just being sarcastic about the "unknown part up under the dash" or "aircraft part forced to work" but, LOL you may have found it anyway!
I wonder how many or what else there is?
If you have a shop manual, there is a procedure for bench testing the generator. No shop manual? - it's time mon frier! E-bay!
Also the 6 volt alternator isn't a bad idea. They make them to look just like your generator if you are looking for the stock look. Two good things about going alternator: First is it will have a higher output (70 amps minimum for an alternator while your generator is rated at 35 amps) and second, but most important, is an alternator will deliver full output at much lower rpms. Your generator has to be turning at 1100 rpm to produce enough amps to suffice (and it idles at what, 650?).
Now I'm serious - take it ALL OUT like you wanted too. OYE VEY!
I also prefer to rewire one strand at a time and bundle/harness when complete. I find it provides a neat job, plus by the time you are done, you "KNOW" your electrical system and your signal flow. And yes, it's really pretty simple when you just use one wire (connect the dots) at a time. I'm not a big fan of premade harnesses (personal preference), but alot of the guys here like the EZ wire set up.
I have a full set of Power Point rewiring diagrams I made to use for my rewire - some of them are just for my stuff (Tilt front actuator, etc), but over a time, I have drawn drawings that are generic for folks here and they are in the album. I may have a couple I haven't imported yet.
You can see JPEG copies in my #4 album titled "Electrical Drawings" and if you would like I will send you the Power Point files to use or modify for your own rewire. Nice thing about them is if you do that as you go (like modify to your color wires), when you are done you have an exact, readable, and custom color electrical diagram for your truck.....I printed mine on photo papaer and laminated them, then put them in my handbook in the glove box.
They are VERY Useful when I blow a fuse (from being to lazy to disconnect the battery when I'm working) or if I want to add or trouble shoot (I had a wire chaffe that I put in a bad spot - took me about a minute it isolate). If you want to take a look in the gallery and send me a PM/E-mail with your real e-mail address and I'll send them.
PS It sounds like the instructions BOR gave you to bypass your existing wiring and wire direct tothe ignition system is working out for you (jeez, ya think) If you get spark at the plugs then you should be in business. Start it and Run it with caution - have a fire extinguisher available - serious!
Welcome to the world of the PO (Previous Owner)!
#19
12-27-2009, 07:39 PM
Julie,
No, a 6V generator does not have the same capacity and capability as a modern 120A 12V alternator. It is, however sufficient to carry the full load imposed on it by a stock truck's electrical system - heater, radio, and all. It wouldn't have been allowed to leave the plant if it wasn't enough to operate the truck. 35A is quite a bit when you just need to run the basic equipment and accessories found in these old trucks. If it doesn't, then the generator is weak or the regulator is bad or not properly adjusted. The situations that you quoted in the manual are all extreme conditions and I'm pretty sure that they are there for CYA on Ford's part. "If we can't fix it, then it's the customer's fault." Although it is a lost art and not something to be attempted by the electrically challenged, a minor regulator adjustment is often all that is required if the generator isn't keeping up or making it's full 35A at max load. My comment about driving at night referred only to the fact that 6V lights aren't as bright as 12V lights.
Right now, the guy has a 6V generator and regulator on the truck and a brand new 6V battery. With those parts in place, he could rewire just the ignition and charging systems in under an hour for less than $10 and have a functioning truck. Then he could rewire the rest a circuit at a time as time allowed for no more than the price of the wire. A 12V conversion is going to require gutting the whole electrical system, buying and installing an alternator and brackets, and then rewiring everything else at the same time. That includes buying and installing bulbs and dropping resistors for the guages, heater, wipers, etc. Unless he wants to install A/C and a 10,000 watt stereo in his big 'ole F-5 truck soon, then retaining, repairing, and rewiring his existing 6V system is the quicker and least expensive method of getting his truck working. I'm just trying to help the guy out without costing him $500.
Joe,
You've done a fine job of going through the circuit and troubleshooting. Even though I'm an electrical technician by trade, I normally don't answer electrical questions because a lot of guys don't have enough of a grasp of what goes on in their electrical system to allow someone on the other side of a computer screen to lend a hand and I'm not always patient enough to try to explain it. The results that you are getting indicate that your ignition system is working. As you surmised, sometimes just having a spark isn't enough. If it's a weak, lazy, orange spark, it probably will get blown out under compression. You need a snappy white or blue spark to get the fire lit. Another possibility at this point is that your plugs are fuel fouled from all the cranking. The fuel will essentially create a short across the ceramic insulator and weaken or even stop your spark. They can even look dry and still be fuel fouled. The easiest way to check and eliminate this is to screw in a fresh set of plugs. It is sometimes also possible to dry them out by heating them with a propane torch. Get them HOT, HOT, HOT and then let them cool back off before putting them in.
Yeah, that gizmo under the dash is a dropping resistor. That would be how they got away with running the 6V bulbs and possibly the guages on 12V. It is also the reason that your lights are so dim on 6V. If you are going to run 6V for awhile, then take it out and connect the wires together.
No, a 6V generator does not have the same capacity and capability as a modern 120A 12V alternator. It is, however sufficient to carry the full load imposed on it by a stock truck's electrical system - heater, radio, and all. It wouldn't have been allowed to leave the plant if it wasn't enough to operate the truck. 35A is quite a bit when you just need to run the basic equipment and accessories found in these old trucks. If it doesn't, then the generator is weak or the regulator is bad or not properly adjusted. The situations that you quoted in the manual are all extreme conditions and I'm pretty sure that they are there for CYA on Ford's part. "If we can't fix it, then it's the customer's fault." Although it is a lost art and not something to be attempted by the electrically challenged, a minor regulator adjustment is often all that is required if the generator isn't keeping up or making it's full 35A at max load. My comment about driving at night referred only to the fact that 6V lights aren't as bright as 12V lights.
Right now, the guy has a 6V generator and regulator on the truck and a brand new 6V battery. With those parts in place, he could rewire just the ignition and charging systems in under an hour for less than $10 and have a functioning truck. Then he could rewire the rest a circuit at a time as time allowed for no more than the price of the wire. A 12V conversion is going to require gutting the whole electrical system, buying and installing an alternator and brackets, and then rewiring everything else at the same time. That includes buying and installing bulbs and dropping resistors for the guages, heater, wipers, etc. Unless he wants to install A/C and a 10,000 watt stereo in his big 'ole F-5 truck soon, then retaining, repairing, and rewiring his existing 6V system is the quicker and least expensive method of getting his truck working. I'm just trying to help the guy out without costing him $500.
Joe,
You've done a fine job of going through the circuit and troubleshooting. Even though I'm an electrical technician by trade, I normally don't answer electrical questions because a lot of guys don't have enough of a grasp of what goes on in their electrical system to allow someone on the other side of a computer screen to lend a hand and I'm not always patient enough to try to explain it. The results that you are getting indicate that your ignition system is working. As you surmised, sometimes just having a spark isn't enough. If it's a weak, lazy, orange spark, it probably will get blown out under compression. You need a snappy white or blue spark to get the fire lit. Another possibility at this point is that your plugs are fuel fouled from all the cranking. The fuel will essentially create a short across the ceramic insulator and weaken or even stop your spark. They can even look dry and still be fuel fouled. The easiest way to check and eliminate this is to screw in a fresh set of plugs. It is sometimes also possible to dry them out by heating them with a propane torch. Get them HOT, HOT, HOT and then let them cool back off before putting them in.
Yeah, that gizmo under the dash is a dropping resistor. That would be how they got away with running the 6V bulbs and possibly the guages on 12V. It is also the reason that your lights are so dim on 6V. If you are going to run 6V for awhile, then take it out and connect the wires together.
#20
12-27-2009, 07:51 PM
You're getting all the advice you need to do a good job. I'm only posting this to confirm for you that I am now the proud owner of 2, count 'em 2, coil units with open secondaries. One of them has NEVER BEEN USED!!!
I'm not as ticked as I was but it's off to AutoZone tomorrow morning to buy a THIRD coil in hopes I will get one this time that is NOT dead in the box.
I'm starting a breeding herd and I hope to be selling coil units by next summer. Does anyone know what coil units eat? Mine probably eat fries. Get it? Fries. Oh, I kill myself sometimes.
I'm not as ticked as I was but it's off to AutoZone tomorrow morning to buy a THIRD coil in hopes I will get one this time that is NOT dead in the box.
I'm starting a breeding herd and I hope to be selling coil units by next summer. Does anyone know what coil units eat? Mine probably eat fries. Get it? Fries. Oh, I kill myself sometimes.
#21
12-28-2009, 12:23 AM
I'm starting a breeding herd and I hope to be selling coil units by next summer. Does anyone know what coil units eat? Mine probably eat fries. Get it? Fries. Oh, I kill myself sometimes.
Seriously, I checked two round can coils on running engines tonight. One is a 12V external resistor unit on a '65 289 and the other is a 6V on my 'ole faithful '55 860. (Which, incidentally, started right up at under 30 degrees again tonight and plowed snow for an hour and a half with both headlights, a taillight, and a sealed beam worklight burning. The genny never even broke a sweat.
) Both coils read just about the same resistance across the primaries and the secondaries. See my comments in my first post on this thread about there not being any difference in a 12V and a 6V coil. The primary resistance on both was 1.4 - 1.6 ohms and the secondary was 7.5K - 8K ohms. I did have to kick the meter up a couple ranges to read it. Thieving *&^%#$&%$'s at my previous employer stole my autoranging Fluke. 
Maybe the Chinamen build Autozone a bad batch? Although it doesn't sound like Joe is having much more luck with his Pertronix coil.
#22
12-28-2009, 01:00 AM
Post Fiend
Julie,
No, a 6V generator does not have the same capacity and capability as a modern 120A 12V alternator. It is, however sufficient to carry the full load imposed on it by a stock truck's electrical system - heater, radio, and all. It wouldn't have been allowed to leave the plant if it wasn't enough to operate the truck. 35A is quite a bit when you just need to run the basic equipment and accessories found in these old trucks. If it doesn't, then the generator is weak or the regulator is bad or not properly adjusted. The situations that you quoted in the manual are all extreme conditions and I'm pretty sure that they are there for CYA on Ford's part. "If we can't fix it, then it's the customer's fault." Although it is a lost art and not something to be attempted by the electrically challenged, a minor regulator adjustment is often all that is required if the generator isn't keeping up or making it's full 35A at max load. My comment about driving at night referred only to the fact that 6V lights aren't as bright as 12V lights.
6 volt lights on a 6 volt system are just as bright as 12 volt bulbs on a 12 volt system if the ful amperage requirement is met....has to do with wattage, and lumens at that given wattage. The reason the 6 volt lights aren't as bright is because the 6 volt generator can't produce enough amps at lower rpms to provide the amps/watts needed to create the same lumens. The amps then come from the battery and eventually it can't provide the them either. That's why they get dimmer at a stop light.
BOR, you seem to like to be rationalizing alot and drawing the conclusions you want to hear by mis associating say what you will but facts are facts.
And we can disagree and argue all day. Yes the 35 amp generator was sufficient (there was no margin) to run the ignition and lights at operating rpm (not idle rpm), and it was changed to 12 votls for the very reason I sited above, and 12 volts requires half as many amps as 6 volt to support the same wattage requirement.
Also, a standard Alternator on a vehicle is not 120 amps - more like 70 unless you buy somethng high output or try an install somethng from a hydro-electric plant. And being an "Electrical technician" I'm sure that you realize the supply difference between a 6 volt generator putting out 35 amps and a 12 volt alternator putting 70 amps is four fold - not double.
In 1951 these trucks were thought of as tools not luxury vehicles. There standard use was thought of to support farm and market use. That began to change with the introduction of more comfort features in the middle fifties.
People didn't CYA in 1951 (yes, it's true. People actually thought differently 60 years ago than you do today). There were no warning lables or trouble desks. People were expected to know how to opperate their vehicles correctly, and that took knowledge of the systems and their limitations - like any tool. And if they couldn't operate the vehicles correctly they were expected to demonstrate the responsibility to not operate them. The 6 volt charging system is marginal unless you are familiar with it and know how to operate the truck conservatively with it. And if you want to operate your behicle daily without worrying about the battery going dead, with a few added accessories, then the 6 volt system isn't going to provide yo withthat security. The quote in the shop manual is legit and bona fide.
Right now, the guy has a 6V generator and regulator on the truck and a brand new 6V battery. With those parts in place, he could rewire just the ignition and charging systems in under an hour for less than $10 and have a functioning truck. Then he could rewire the rest a circuit at a time as time allowed for no more than the price of the wire. A 12V conversion is going to require gutting the whole electrical system, buying and installing an alternator and brackets, and then rewiring everything else at the same time. That includes buying and installing bulbs and dropping resistors for the guages, heater, wipers, etc. Unless he wants to install A/C and a 10,000 watt stereo in his big 'ole F-5 truck soon, then retaining, repairing, and rewiring his existing 6V system is the quicker and least expensive method of getting his truck working. I'm just trying to help the guy out without costing him $500.
Great help! Telling a guy to do the job just good enough to get by and not do it right isn't very good advice. And this electrical system NEEDS to be removed - completely. Not because it needs to look nice or support various improvements, but because it has hidden, ba$tardized modifications and is UNSAFE!
And advising someone to partially leave unsafe wiring in a vehicle, with no safety backups, to save money, to use it and replace the bad wiring when you get the time, is bad advice.
My advice is if you can't afford to have safe wiring or a relable electrical system in your WHOLE truck, then get out of the restoration hobby.
If you have the time and money to do the job twice, then do it right the first time.
Joe,
You've done a fine job of going through the circuit and troubleshooting. Even though I'm an electrical technician by trade, I normally don't answer electrical questions because a lot of guys don't have enough of a grasp of what goes on in their electrical system to allow someone on the other side of a computer screen to lend a hand and I'm not always patient enough to try to explain it. The results that you are getting indicate that your ignition system is working. As you surmised, sometimes just having a spark isn't enough. If it's a weak, lazy, orange spark, it probably will get blown out under compression. You need a snappy white or blue spark to get the fire lit. Another possibility at this point is that your plugs are fuel fouled from all the cranking. The fuel will essentially create a short across the ceramic insulator and weaken or even stop your spark. They can even look dry and still be fuel fouled. The easiest way to check and eliminate this is to screw in a fresh set of plugs. It is sometimes also possible to dry them out by heating them with a propane torch. Get them HOT, HOT, HOT and then let them cool back off before putting them in. Maybe if it's not too expensive, you COULD BUY A SET OF NEW ONES!
Yeah, that gizmo under the dash is a dropping resistor. That would be how they got away with running the 6V bulbs and possibly the guages on 12V. It is also the reason that your lights are so dim on 6V. If you are going to run 6V for awhile, then take it out and connect the wires together. Yeah it might be a good idea to take it out also because its just hanging there bare and hot. If you touch it and ground while the lights are on you'll probabbly get electrically burned - like weld your fingers together.
No, a 6V generator does not have the same capacity and capability as a modern 120A 12V alternator. It is, however sufficient to carry the full load imposed on it by a stock truck's electrical system - heater, radio, and all. It wouldn't have been allowed to leave the plant if it wasn't enough to operate the truck. 35A is quite a bit when you just need to run the basic equipment and accessories found in these old trucks. If it doesn't, then the generator is weak or the regulator is bad or not properly adjusted. The situations that you quoted in the manual are all extreme conditions and I'm pretty sure that they are there for CYA on Ford's part. "If we can't fix it, then it's the customer's fault." Although it is a lost art and not something to be attempted by the electrically challenged, a minor regulator adjustment is often all that is required if the generator isn't keeping up or making it's full 35A at max load. My comment about driving at night referred only to the fact that 6V lights aren't as bright as 12V lights.
6 volt lights on a 6 volt system are just as bright as 12 volt bulbs on a 12 volt system if the ful amperage requirement is met....has to do with wattage, and lumens at that given wattage. The reason the 6 volt lights aren't as bright is because the 6 volt generator can't produce enough amps at lower rpms to provide the amps/watts needed to create the same lumens. The amps then come from the battery and eventually it can't provide the them either. That's why they get dimmer at a stop light.
BOR, you seem to like to be rationalizing alot and drawing the conclusions you want to hear by mis associating say what you will but facts are facts.
And we can disagree and argue all day. Yes the 35 amp generator was sufficient (there was no margin) to run the ignition and lights at operating rpm (not idle rpm), and it was changed to 12 votls for the very reason I sited above, and 12 volts requires half as many amps as 6 volt to support the same wattage requirement.
Also, a standard Alternator on a vehicle is not 120 amps - more like 70 unless you buy somethng high output or try an install somethng from a hydro-electric plant. And being an "Electrical technician" I'm sure that you realize the supply difference between a 6 volt generator putting out 35 amps and a 12 volt alternator putting 70 amps is four fold - not double.
In 1951 these trucks were thought of as tools not luxury vehicles. There standard use was thought of to support farm and market use. That began to change with the introduction of more comfort features in the middle fifties.
People didn't CYA in 1951 (yes, it's true. People actually thought differently 60 years ago than you do today). There were no warning lables or trouble desks. People were expected to know how to opperate their vehicles correctly, and that took knowledge of the systems and their limitations - like any tool. And if they couldn't operate the vehicles correctly they were expected to demonstrate the responsibility to not operate them. The 6 volt charging system is marginal unless you are familiar with it and know how to operate the truck conservatively with it. And if you want to operate your behicle daily without worrying about the battery going dead, with a few added accessories, then the 6 volt system isn't going to provide yo withthat security. The quote in the shop manual is legit and bona fide.
Right now, the guy has a 6V generator and regulator on the truck and a brand new 6V battery. With those parts in place, he could rewire just the ignition and charging systems in under an hour for less than $10 and have a functioning truck. Then he could rewire the rest a circuit at a time as time allowed for no more than the price of the wire. A 12V conversion is going to require gutting the whole electrical system, buying and installing an alternator and brackets, and then rewiring everything else at the same time. That includes buying and installing bulbs and dropping resistors for the guages, heater, wipers, etc. Unless he wants to install A/C and a 10,000 watt stereo in his big 'ole F-5 truck soon, then retaining, repairing, and rewiring his existing 6V system is the quicker and least expensive method of getting his truck working. I'm just trying to help the guy out without costing him $500.
Great help! Telling a guy to do the job just good enough to get by and not do it right isn't very good advice. And this electrical system NEEDS to be removed - completely. Not because it needs to look nice or support various improvements, but because it has hidden, ba$tardized modifications and is UNSAFE!
And advising someone to partially leave unsafe wiring in a vehicle, with no safety backups, to save money, to use it and replace the bad wiring when you get the time, is bad advice.
My advice is if you can't afford to have safe wiring or a relable electrical system in your WHOLE truck, then get out of the restoration hobby.
If you have the time and money to do the job twice, then do it right the first time.
Joe,
You've done a fine job of going through the circuit and troubleshooting. Even though I'm an electrical technician by trade, I normally don't answer electrical questions because a lot of guys don't have enough of a grasp of what goes on in their electrical system to allow someone on the other side of a computer screen to lend a hand and I'm not always patient enough to try to explain it. The results that you are getting indicate that your ignition system is working. As you surmised, sometimes just having a spark isn't enough. If it's a weak, lazy, orange spark, it probably will get blown out under compression. You need a snappy white or blue spark to get the fire lit. Another possibility at this point is that your plugs are fuel fouled from all the cranking. The fuel will essentially create a short across the ceramic insulator and weaken or even stop your spark. They can even look dry and still be fuel fouled. The easiest way to check and eliminate this is to screw in a fresh set of plugs. It is sometimes also possible to dry them out by heating them with a propane torch. Get them HOT, HOT, HOT and then let them cool back off before putting them in. Maybe if it's not too expensive, you COULD BUY A SET OF NEW ONES!
Yeah, that gizmo under the dash is a dropping resistor. That would be how they got away with running the 6V bulbs and possibly the guages on 12V. It is also the reason that your lights are so dim on 6V. If you are going to run 6V for awhile, then take it out and connect the wires together. Yeah it might be a good idea to take it out also because its just hanging there bare and hot. If you touch it and ground while the lights are on you'll probabbly get electrically burned - like weld your fingers together.
Just FYI here's a link that might be helpful and inexpensive:
RED FIRE EXTINGUISHER JEEP WRANGLER CHEROKEE RANGER:eBay Motors (item 250553442725 end time Dec-27-09 23:24:04 PST)
#23
12-28-2009, 12:37 PM
Post Fiend
You're getting all the advice you need to do a good job. I'm only posting this to confirm for you that I am now the proud owner of 2, count 'em 2, coil units with open secondaries. One of them has NEVER BEEN USED!!!
I'm not as ticked as I was but it's off to AutoZone tomorrow morning to buy a THIRD coil in hopes I will get one this time that is NOT dead in the box.
I'm starting a breeding herd and I hope to be selling coil units by next summer. Does anyone know what coil units eat? Mine probably eat fries. Get it? Fries. Oh, I kill myself sometimes.
I'm not as ticked as I was but it's off to AutoZone tomorrow morning to buy a THIRD coil in hopes I will get one this time that is NOT dead in the box.
I'm starting a breeding herd and I hope to be selling coil units by next summer. Does anyone know what coil units eat? Mine probably eat fries. Get it? Fries. Oh, I kill myself sometimes.
I had some experience with this problem when I first got my truck running. I thought the truck was fuel starved so I tookit to San Diego Carburetor to have them take a look.
They called me and told me th ecoils was bad. "Fooey" I said it, "It's brand new."
"Fooey yourself" they said - "over half the new oil filled coils you will buy are bad with open or bad windings" and sure enough I bought another one and it was bad too. So, he put a solid packed "Flame Thrower" on the truck - problem solved. He mentioned that the Flame Thrower brand coils with the solid packing were almost always good.
Might want to try one!
#24
12-28-2009, 03:40 PM
Wow, I never intended to start a war here. I really do appreciate the help and advise of BOTH of you.
Joe, I do want to do this in an economical fashion, and perhaps I was not clear in my explanations. The battery is new and the generator does work, however, I don't know how well it works as I don't know how to check the amperage output. I did take it off the truck and haul it into town, the local starter shop put power to it and it works, but since he does so little work on 6V, he said that when his old 6V gauges died he never fixed or replaced them. Even he suggested going 12V. As for the rest of the wiring, I do need to replace ALL of it.
Joe, I do want to do this in an economical fashion, and perhaps I was not clear in my explanations. The battery is new and the generator does work, however, I don't know how well it works as I don't know how to check the amperage output. I did take it off the truck and haul it into town, the local starter shop put power to it and it works, but since he does so little work on 6V, he said that when his old 6V gauges died he never fixed or replaced them. Even he suggested going 12V. As for the rest of the wiring, I do need to replace ALL of it.
#25
12-28-2009, 03:40 PM
Hi George...funny guy (eh),
I had some experience with this problem when I first got my truck running. I thought the truck was fuel starved so I tookit to San Diego Carburetor to have them take a look.
They called me and told me th ecoils was bad. "Fooey" I said it, "It's brand new."
"Fooey yourself" they said - "over half the new oil filled coils you will buy are bad with open or bad windings" and sure enough I bought another one and it was bad too. So, he put a solid packed "Flame Thrower" on the truck - problem solved. He mentioned that the Flame Thrower brand coils with the solid packing were almost always good.
Might want to try one!
I had some experience with this problem when I first got my truck running. I thought the truck was fuel starved so I tookit to San Diego Carburetor to have them take a look.
They called me and told me th ecoils was bad. "Fooey" I said it, "It's brand new."
"Fooey yourself" they said - "over half the new oil filled coils you will buy are bad with open or bad windings" and sure enough I bought another one and it was bad too. So, he put a solid packed "Flame Thrower" on the truck - problem solved. He mentioned that the Flame Thrower brand coils with the solid packing were almost always good.
Might want to try one!
#26
12-28-2009, 07:33 PM
I had to go to physical therapy today, so I stopped by the NAPA store on my way home and picked up a set of plugs. I hooked up the battery charger and began changing plugs, all went fine until I got to the #5 cylinder. The plug was turning really hard so I opted to forgo that plug for now. With 7 out of 8 new plugs (and yes, the ones in there were fouled bad) I hooked up a jumper from the battery to the coil and after about 3 attempts, I actually had some fire. After a couple of more the old flathead began to purr. Not wanting to run it too long with the jumper wire, I tried opening the choke a bit too soon and of course it died. I decided to let it go for now until I can get some proper wire attached. I also noticed that there is a bit of fuel leaking out of the base of the carb, looks like time for a gasket there.
#27
12-28-2009, 08:15 PM
Post Fiend
Wow, I never intended to start a war here. I really do appreciate the help and advise of BOTH of you.
Joe, I do want to do this in an economical fashion, and perhaps I was not clear in my explanations. The battery is new and the generator does work, however, I don't know how well it works as I don't know how to check the amperage output. I did take it off the truck and haul it into town, the local starter shop put power to it and it works, but since he does so little work on 6V, he said that when his old 6V gauges died he never fixed or replaced them. Even he suggested going 12V. As for the rest of the wiring, I do need to replace ALL of it.
Joe, I do want to do this in an economical fashion, and perhaps I was not clear in my explanations. The battery is new and the generator does work, however, I don't know how well it works as I don't know how to check the amperage output. I did take it off the truck and haul it into town, the local starter shop put power to it and it works, but since he does so little work on 6V, he said that when his old 6V gauges died he never fixed or replaced them. Even he suggested going 12V. As for the rest of the wiring, I do need to replace ALL of it.
(what a birch)I had to go to physical therapy today, so I stopped by the NAPA store on my way home and picked up a set of plugs. I hooked up the battery charger and began changing plugs, all went fine until I got to the #5 cylinder. The plug was turning really hard so I opted to forgo that plug for now. With 7 out of 8 new plugs (and yes, the ones in there were fouled bad) I hooked up a jumper from the battery to the coil and after about 3 attempts, I actually had some fire. After a couple of more the old flathead began to purr. Not wanting to run it too long with the jumper wire, I tried opening the choke a bit too soon and of course it died. I decided to let it go for now until I can get some proper wire attached. I also noticed that there is a bit of fuel leaking out of the base of the carb, looks like time for a gasket there.
Question, how long has it been since your PO had the thing running (and I mean driving around running, not start it up for 30 seconds running.
#28
12-28-2009, 09:40 PM
Julie, he had not had it running for a couple of months when I went to look at it. My buddy and I actually got it running there (with the 12V) and I was able to drive it around about a 2 acre area. Also, when the guy picked it up for me, they had it running and drove it up on the trailer. It was only after I got it home and put the 6V battery in it that it would not start.
#30
12-29-2009, 02:10 AM
Glad you got it running, Joe. It's just a machine. Eventually, with enough work and tinkering, it has no choice but to come around. Or at least that's what I try to tell myself when they don't cooperate. It kinda sounds like your plugs were the culprit.
War? What war? I'm not in any war. I'm just here to exchange ideas and talk old trucks. I was trying to help you get your truck running enough to figure out just what you've bought. That's what you asked for, so that's exactly what I gave you. But that's me. I don't pretend to be able to think for anybody besides myself nor can I explain their reactions.
Yup, your harness is in bad shape. That's what most of them look like after this much time. All of mine do or did. The two runners I've got haven't really had any work started yet that would justify doing a bunch of wiring. I just needed enough to make them mobile so they can move around my place under their own power, so I chopped the supply wires off at the starter solenoid to kill the harness and just wired up the ignition system with a toggle switch under the dash and strung new wiring for the generator and starter button. I've got mechanical oil pressure guages on them, but they don't run long enough to worry about reading engine temp. Certainly not a permanent solution and not even close to having lights and whatever, but it get's the job done and I don't have to worry about shorts. It sure beats pushing!
Another note if you hadn't already figured it out - your starter solenoid has a button on the bottom of it so you can manually engage the solenoid and crank the engine. It's handy if you're troubleshooting or doing a tuneup.
That gizmo below the voltage regulator with the hoses looks like the breather check valve for a Hydrovac booster. They're nice and work pretty good if they're kept up, but getting one overhauled if it quits can be expensive. That's just part of the joy of owning a big truck, I guess!
What are your brakes like? You'll know if the booster is working because it'll plant your face in the windshield if you get carried away with the pedal. They'll work without it, but you'll have to stand on them.
Have fun with your new toy and post often!
War? What war? I'm not in any war. I'm just here to exchange ideas and talk old trucks. I was trying to help you get your truck running enough to figure out just what you've bought. That's what you asked for, so that's exactly what I gave you. But that's me. I don't pretend to be able to think for anybody besides myself nor can I explain their reactions.
Yup, your harness is in bad shape. That's what most of them look like after this much time. All of mine do or did. The two runners I've got haven't really had any work started yet that would justify doing a bunch of wiring. I just needed enough to make them mobile so they can move around my place under their own power, so I chopped the supply wires off at the starter solenoid to kill the harness and just wired up the ignition system with a toggle switch under the dash and strung new wiring for the generator and starter button. I've got mechanical oil pressure guages on them, but they don't run long enough to worry about reading engine temp. Certainly not a permanent solution and not even close to having lights and whatever, but it get's the job done and I don't have to worry about shorts. It sure beats pushing!
Another note if you hadn't already figured it out - your starter solenoid has a button on the bottom of it so you can manually engage the solenoid and crank the engine. It's handy if you're troubleshooting or doing a tuneup.
That gizmo below the voltage regulator with the hoses looks like the breather check valve for a Hydrovac booster. They're nice and work pretty good if they're kept up, but getting one overhauled if it quits can be expensive. That's just part of the joy of owning a big truck, I guess!
What are your brakes like? You'll know if the booster is working because it'll plant your face in the windshield if you get carried away with the pedal. They'll work without it, but you'll have to stand on them.Have fun with your new toy and post often!