Tips if your having rough idle when cold
#1
12-07-2009, 08:15 AM
Tips if your having rough idle when cold
I'm including the following from another thread,so you won't have to read through post after post. This has taken me several months to finally narrow down the problem My 2001 Escape was having. Hope this helps!
From this forum and others, I can see this a growing problem as our vehicles age, and with the economy a little flat we all seem to be keeping our cars longer. The problem with this cold start is the same symptom exist for what could be many different problems. For those having this problem here are my tips to check.
For some of you , you've heard some of these things before. I'm detailing this for a brand new person on this forum, and then farther down, for those out there that have been on this forum for a while.
First of all, even if your a novice get a repair manual, I got a Haynes manual for about $15.00 from the local auto store. Even if your not going to attempt any repairs yourself it will help with obtaining the knowledge with what the problem is with your vehicle, and if you take it to a shop you might have a better way to let the shop know what the problem could be.
1. If you have a Check engine light on, go by one of the auto parts stores and have them use a code reader and tell you the codes, most do it for free. It may not be a complete answer, but a possible clue to help you narrow down the problem. If your a novice here, some codes will lead you right to the problem, others will narrow things down. The repair manuals have all the codes in them. This forum is also a good place for help with that.
2. Your your car starts fine and the rpms rise to about 1500 and then settle down to about 600-1000 , before your rough idle starts. It's probably not your IAC valve. My experience with a bad IAC (idle air control valve) is it won't hardly idle from the get go, that is no rise in rpms at all and won't keep an idle until it's warmed up.
3. If your having this problem before you start guessing and replacing parts hoping to find the solution, get a can of starting fluid, or if you have some throttle body cleaner or MAF cleaner, maybe even WD40 (just don't know if WD 40 would hurt an O2 sensors) take off the plastic engine cover 3 bolts, #8 socket, and spray all around the intake manifolds and injectors the best you can when the engine is running. If you get a rise or drop in rpms then you've probably got a leak in either the intake manifold gaskets (upper and or lower) or a leak in the o rings of the fuel injectors. If that's the case than you can replace these gaskets and o rings (maybe even the rear spark plugs if they have a lot of miles). If you question your skills of doing this then have it done. It's not extremely hard, but if you've never done more than change the oil, might want to take it somewhere. Also be very careful with these sprays they are flammable, serious injury could happen if a fire occurred!
4. The problem could also be vacuum lines. I was surprised at the condition of some of the vacuum lines behind the intake manifold. The vacuum lines that were covered with that plastic tubing (that is also used to protect electrical wires looked in great shape. the ones that weren't crumbled in my hands (very deteriorated) So if you plan on keeping your Escape for a while I'd replace those lines and put that plastic covering over these lines. The only thing is. it's pretty hard to get to all these lines with the intake manifold on. It can be done just take your time and follow the vacuum lines to the reducers or vacuum tees they connect to. You'll have to use pliers to twist the vacuum lines at the connections to get them to break loose, even then they can be very hard to get off these connections without cutting the vacuum lines, because they become very hard over the years.
5. At the rear of the intake manifold there are 3 vacuum lines connected. The one on the right is the PCV hose. On at least the older Escapes there is a 45 degree hose that actually connects to a plastic pipe (covered by foam hose so you can't tell it's plastic tubing). On my Escape the 45 degree hose (about 3 inches long) is molded with an intention on both sides. Has my hose got old it got mushy and the hose would just about collapse when running. I made the mistake of buying the complete upper hose for $42 bucks from Ford. You may be able to find a molded hose and just replace that section. Explorer and Expedition owners have found a Chrysler part that works, don't know if it would work on the Escape. There is also a 3 inch section of PCV hose that connects at the PCV valve it gets very deteriorated, but it's pretty tough to get to, but I was able to get to it with taking the air filter cover and hose that connects to the throttle body off, using long nose pliers. While your at that replace your PCV valve too, if it sticks this can rough idle problems too. It also pretty hard to get to, I had to use a pair of pliers to get around the square part of the valve, it comes out counter clockwise. When putting in the new PCV valve, it has to turn until you get a small click at the end.
6. Many folks replaced the MAF sensor thinking that was there problem, and in some cases it was. My experience with my Escape (being a vacuum problem not a MAF sensor problem) was this. When my vehicle is warmed up (at least 10 minutes) and I turn off the engine disconnected the MAF sensor, if it was a sensor problem then the PCM should go to a default and idle fine. Just don't start your car twice like that or you will get a check engine light on. In my case with a vacuum leak, when I disconnected the MAF sensor and started my Escape it would get this terrible loopy idle constantly ranging from 500-1000 rpms never getting better. So in my case the MAF sensor and the PCM are working hard to get the idle steady. I'm not exactly sure why it idles better once it's warmed up, maybe the gaskets, the plastic/metal on the manifolds or the o-rings on the injectors expand a little once they are warmed up (just a guess).
7. Another possible problem is the ECT sensor. During the first 2 minutes or so the PCM is blocked out the input from the O2 sensors (they heat up thru a wired) because if the PCM read off the O2 sensor before it's hot it would run very rough. If the ECT sensor is shorted it could cause the PCM to read off of the O2 sensors so it will run very rough until the O2 sensor heats up. You can detect this using a scanner, to check the loop status. A more simple way, (not sure if this would work or not) is to turn your vehicle off when it is well warmed up, disconnect the MAF sensor and restart, if it idles fine than you don't have a vacuum leak, (there is always a chance you could get a CEL light, so if you don't want to disconnect your battery and loose all your stored radio stations then don't try this). Disconnecting the MAF sensor and having it run very rough will only tell you it's a vacuum leak, it won't tell you if the ECT sensor is bad, but it may help you to narrow it down.
8. If your having a problem with it dying out, engine warmed up, coming to a stop, that's a different problem. Apparently 04-08 Escapes have a problem with the torque converter locking up when coming to a stop, causing the engine to die out. Very scary and dangerous if your in the wrong place at the wrong time.
So this is what I've found with this problem, there are other possibilities like bad O2 sensors, Ethanol blended gas (every big city) has caused problems for some. A cracked coils that acts up when it rains, but runs fine when it's dry out. I'm just relaying what months of trying to problem solve this frustrating problem has lead me too. I used to be a Service Manger a long time ago in a galaxy far far away (so to speak), and there are others with much better knowledge and wisdom then me. So if your having problems with cold idle with your Escape, don't get discouraged, remember it's just a collection of parts, there is a solution, but you may have to have a lot of patience. I've really enjoyed my Escape for the last 7 years, been very trouble free (up to this), and I drove Toyota's for 15 years (great vehicles too). Just remember has your Escape ages it's going to need a little more attention to detail, but it's great having a paid for car in my case!
If anyone thinks any of my information is incorrect just let me know, I'm basing everything on my personal experience and my knowledge, so I may not be completely correct on everything!
By the way if you didn't read the other thread, my Escapes problem was the #3 cylinder, lower intake manifold gasket, and possibly more than one cylinder. The neoprene gaskets had lost their integrity and were letting air into the intake system, I replace all the intake manifold gaskets, and the o rings on the fuel injectors. It now idles fine when it's cold and runs great again. Also had several vacuum hoses that were in very poor shape that were replaced, a long with a section of PVC hose that connects to the back of the intake manifold. They weren't leaking yet, but they would have soon. The main problem was the lower intake manifold gaskets, in my case.
This is a great forum, without it I probably would have never come up with what the problem for my Escape was, and could have spent hundreds and hundreds of dollars letting Ford replace parts. The one thing I do notice on this forum sometimes is this. Someone will come on here looking for help with a problem, and many times I'd like to know what the solution to their problem was, but they never come back and tell you what solved it. So in my case I wanted to let everyone know what solved my situation with my Escape.
Thanks everyone!
Scott
From this forum and others, I can see this a growing problem as our vehicles age, and with the economy a little flat we all seem to be keeping our cars longer. The problem with this cold start is the same symptom exist for what could be many different problems. For those having this problem here are my tips to check.
For some of you , you've heard some of these things before. I'm detailing this for a brand new person on this forum, and then farther down, for those out there that have been on this forum for a while.
First of all, even if your a novice get a repair manual, I got a Haynes manual for about $15.00 from the local auto store. Even if your not going to attempt any repairs yourself it will help with obtaining the knowledge with what the problem is with your vehicle, and if you take it to a shop you might have a better way to let the shop know what the problem could be.
1. If you have a Check engine light on, go by one of the auto parts stores and have them use a code reader and tell you the codes, most do it for free. It may not be a complete answer, but a possible clue to help you narrow down the problem. If your a novice here, some codes will lead you right to the problem, others will narrow things down. The repair manuals have all the codes in them. This forum is also a good place for help with that.
2. Your your car starts fine and the rpms rise to about 1500 and then settle down to about 600-1000 , before your rough idle starts. It's probably not your IAC valve. My experience with a bad IAC (idle air control valve) is it won't hardly idle from the get go, that is no rise in rpms at all and won't keep an idle until it's warmed up.
3. If your having this problem before you start guessing and replacing parts hoping to find the solution, get a can of starting fluid, or if you have some throttle body cleaner or MAF cleaner, maybe even WD40 (just don't know if WD 40 would hurt an O2 sensors) take off the plastic engine cover 3 bolts, #8 socket, and spray all around the intake manifolds and injectors the best you can when the engine is running. If you get a rise or drop in rpms then you've probably got a leak in either the intake manifold gaskets (upper and or lower) or a leak in the o rings of the fuel injectors. If that's the case than you can replace these gaskets and o rings (maybe even the rear spark plugs if they have a lot of miles). If you question your skills of doing this then have it done. It's not extremely hard, but if you've never done more than change the oil, might want to take it somewhere. Also be very careful with these sprays they are flammable, serious injury could happen if a fire occurred!
4. The problem could also be vacuum lines. I was surprised at the condition of some of the vacuum lines behind the intake manifold. The vacuum lines that were covered with that plastic tubing (that is also used to protect electrical wires looked in great shape. the ones that weren't crumbled in my hands (very deteriorated) So if you plan on keeping your Escape for a while I'd replace those lines and put that plastic covering over these lines. The only thing is. it's pretty hard to get to all these lines with the intake manifold on. It can be done just take your time and follow the vacuum lines to the reducers or vacuum tees they connect to. You'll have to use pliers to twist the vacuum lines at the connections to get them to break loose, even then they can be very hard to get off these connections without cutting the vacuum lines, because they become very hard over the years.
5. At the rear of the intake manifold there are 3 vacuum lines connected. The one on the right is the PCV hose. On at least the older Escapes there is a 45 degree hose that actually connects to a plastic pipe (covered by foam hose so you can't tell it's plastic tubing). On my Escape the 45 degree hose (about 3 inches long) is molded with an intention on both sides. Has my hose got old it got mushy and the hose would just about collapse when running. I made the mistake of buying the complete upper hose for $42 bucks from Ford. You may be able to find a molded hose and just replace that section. Explorer and Expedition owners have found a Chrysler part that works, don't know if it would work on the Escape. There is also a 3 inch section of PCV hose that connects at the PCV valve it gets very deteriorated, but it's pretty tough to get to, but I was able to get to it with taking the air filter cover and hose that connects to the throttle body off, using long nose pliers. While your at that replace your PCV valve too, if it sticks this can rough idle problems too. It also pretty hard to get to, I had to use a pair of pliers to get around the square part of the valve, it comes out counter clockwise. When putting in the new PCV valve, it has to turn until you get a small click at the end.
6. Many folks replaced the MAF sensor thinking that was there problem, and in some cases it was. My experience with my Escape (being a vacuum problem not a MAF sensor problem) was this. When my vehicle is warmed up (at least 10 minutes) and I turn off the engine disconnected the MAF sensor, if it was a sensor problem then the PCM should go to a default and idle fine. Just don't start your car twice like that or you will get a check engine light on. In my case with a vacuum leak, when I disconnected the MAF sensor and started my Escape it would get this terrible loopy idle constantly ranging from 500-1000 rpms never getting better. So in my case the MAF sensor and the PCM are working hard to get the idle steady. I'm not exactly sure why it idles better once it's warmed up, maybe the gaskets, the plastic/metal on the manifolds or the o-rings on the injectors expand a little once they are warmed up (just a guess).
7. Another possible problem is the ECT sensor. During the first 2 minutes or so the PCM is blocked out the input from the O2 sensors (they heat up thru a wired) because if the PCM read off the O2 sensor before it's hot it would run very rough. If the ECT sensor is shorted it could cause the PCM to read off of the O2 sensors so it will run very rough until the O2 sensor heats up. You can detect this using a scanner, to check the loop status. A more simple way, (not sure if this would work or not) is to turn your vehicle off when it is well warmed up, disconnect the MAF sensor and restart, if it idles fine than you don't have a vacuum leak, (there is always a chance you could get a CEL light, so if you don't want to disconnect your battery and loose all your stored radio stations then don't try this). Disconnecting the MAF sensor and having it run very rough will only tell you it's a vacuum leak, it won't tell you if the ECT sensor is bad, but it may help you to narrow it down.
8. If your having a problem with it dying out, engine warmed up, coming to a stop, that's a different problem. Apparently 04-08 Escapes have a problem with the torque converter locking up when coming to a stop, causing the engine to die out. Very scary and dangerous if your in the wrong place at the wrong time.
So this is what I've found with this problem, there are other possibilities like bad O2 sensors, Ethanol blended gas (every big city) has caused problems for some. A cracked coils that acts up when it rains, but runs fine when it's dry out. I'm just relaying what months of trying to problem solve this frustrating problem has lead me too. I used to be a Service Manger a long time ago in a galaxy far far away (so to speak), and there are others with much better knowledge and wisdom then me. So if your having problems with cold idle with your Escape, don't get discouraged, remember it's just a collection of parts, there is a solution, but you may have to have a lot of patience. I've really enjoyed my Escape for the last 7 years, been very trouble free (up to this), and I drove Toyota's for 15 years (great vehicles too). Just remember has your Escape ages it's going to need a little more attention to detail, but it's great having a paid for car in my case!
If anyone thinks any of my information is incorrect just let me know, I'm basing everything on my personal experience and my knowledge, so I may not be completely correct on everything!
By the way if you didn't read the other thread, my Escapes problem was the #3 cylinder, lower intake manifold gasket, and possibly more than one cylinder. The neoprene gaskets had lost their integrity and were letting air into the intake system, I replace all the intake manifold gaskets, and the o rings on the fuel injectors. It now idles fine when it's cold and runs great again. Also had several vacuum hoses that were in very poor shape that were replaced, a long with a section of PVC hose that connects to the back of the intake manifold. They weren't leaking yet, but they would have soon. The main problem was the lower intake manifold gaskets, in my case.
This is a great forum, without it I probably would have never come up with what the problem for my Escape was, and could have spent hundreds and hundreds of dollars letting Ford replace parts. The one thing I do notice on this forum sometimes is this. Someone will come on here looking for help with a problem, and many times I'd like to know what the solution to their problem was, but they never come back and tell you what solved it. So in my case I wanted to let everyone know what solved my situation with my Escape.
Thanks everyone!
Scott
#5
11-02-2012, 01:23 PM
scottss80 "tips if your having rough idle when cold 12/7/09
I'm brand new to this, so please forgive the indiscretions. I am trying to contact and "converse" with scottss80 regarding his post of 12/7/08 entitled "tips if you're having rough idle when cold" post. I will not include my specific question here in that I don't even know how to send this or whether I have done this right yet. Thanks
#6
11-03-2012, 06:23 AM
Hotshot
#7
11-09-2012, 07:47 AM
Peter 45,
Hi, ProjectSHO89 is right I haven't been on here in quiet awhile. Reason being I haven't had a lick of problems with my Escape in a long time! Just keeps chugging along at 155,000 miles and going strong. It was considered totaled in a hail storm a year ago, which was a real bummer because it always looked brand new until that. I do still drive it all over the place and keep my Fusion garaged for when I want to drive it when I want to drive something that doesn't look like my ex wife took a ball ping hammer to it, I digress;o)
I got a message on my voice mail oh about a week ago, but it was completely garbled, that is I couldn't make out anything you were saying. I have Sprint and I've had that problem when I leave messages sometimes using a Bluetooth device, something to do with Sprint. I did finally get your other voice mail though. I work for an airline and work weird crazy hours, and a lot of them so I didn't have a good time to call because of that. I also got stuck in New York City for 6 days because of Hurricane Sandy from there had to go to Chicago for a race at the Willis (Sears) Tower last weekend, and that got me way behind some things I needed to do at home. All that being said I'd be glad to try to help you out, it's Friday the 9th, if you get this message soon, would there be a good time to talk sometime this weekend the 10th, 11th? If not we can figure out another time that will work!
Sorry you're having some kind of problem with your idle, it's a real bear to try to figure it out, it took me quiet some time through trail and error to get to the problem, so many things can cause the same symptom and I know how frustrating it can be! Hope you get this message, I'll mainly be out today, but I will check back here and see if you got my message and a time when we can talk. I'm in the Dallas area, I think you are one hour behind me time wise.
Take Care!
Scott
Hi, ProjectSHO89 is right I haven't been on here in quiet awhile. Reason being I haven't had a lick of problems with my Escape in a long time! Just keeps chugging along at 155,000 miles and going strong. It was considered totaled in a hail storm a year ago, which was a real bummer because it always looked brand new until that. I do still drive it all over the place and keep my Fusion garaged for when I want to drive it when I want to drive something that doesn't look like my ex wife took a ball ping hammer to it, I digress;o)
I got a message on my voice mail oh about a week ago, but it was completely garbled, that is I couldn't make out anything you were saying. I have Sprint and I've had that problem when I leave messages sometimes using a Bluetooth device, something to do with Sprint. I did finally get your other voice mail though. I work for an airline and work weird crazy hours, and a lot of them so I didn't have a good time to call because of that. I also got stuck in New York City for 6 days because of Hurricane Sandy from there had to go to Chicago for a race at the Willis (Sears) Tower last weekend, and that got me way behind some things I needed to do at home. All that being said I'd be glad to try to help you out, it's Friday the 9th, if you get this message soon, would there be a good time to talk sometime this weekend the 10th, 11th? If not we can figure out another time that will work!
Sorry you're having some kind of problem with your idle, it's a real bear to try to figure it out, it took me quiet some time through trail and error to get to the problem, so many things can cause the same symptom and I know how frustrating it can be! Hope you get this message, I'll mainly be out today, but I will check back here and see if you got my message and a time when we can talk. I'm in the Dallas area, I think you are one hour behind me time wise.
Take Care!
Scott
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#8
11-20-2012, 05:52 PM
#9
02-06-2013, 06:52 PM
help
The other day wife put fuel in her mazda before class. On her way home, everytime she came to a stop the tribute would sputter and idle rough. It drives just fine above 1500 rpm.
When I went to start it. It took a long time to fire. I had to push the gas petal down to get it to fire. Once it was running the idle was rough, and at time I thought would die. I could smell fuel from the exhast.
I have replaced both the upper and lower intake gaskets. Replace the IAC. Nothing has worked. I checked for leaks using a carb cleaner on the fittings. I think. I heard a hiss somewhere behind the intake, near the firewall. But, I have not found where that could be coming from.
Anyone have any suggestions?
p
The other day wife put fuel in her mazda before class. On her way home, everytime she came to a stop the tribute would sputter and idle rough. It drives just fine above 1500 rpm.
When I went to start it. It took a long time to fire. I had to push the gas petal down to get it to fire. Once it was running the idle was rough, and at time I thought would die. I could smell fuel from the exhast.
I have replaced both the upper and lower intake gaskets. Replace the IAC. Nothing has worked. I checked for leaks using a carb cleaner on the fittings. I think. I heard a hiss somewhere behind the intake, near the firewall. But, I have not found where that could be coming from.
Anyone have any suggestions?
p
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02-07-2013, 08:03 AM
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