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Old 11-26-2009, 03:37 AM
da-bees da-bees is offline
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Wix vs Motorcraft oil filters

There has been hundreds of posts regarding this subject,but I still have questions. Dealer did all oil & filter changes from purchase till 5 year warranty expired. Oil hardly turned color between 5k change intervals. After 5 years,I did two changes using Rotella 15w40 and wix 57311 filters. I used wix mainly because that is what was in it after last dealer change,so part # was there for me. Oil continued to look good at 5k intervals. After reading here and other forums that using anything other than Rancor,Motorcraft or IH filters would result in engine damage,I used Rotella with Motorcraft 3C3Z-6731-AA filter. Oil was discolored at 2k and looked auful at 5k for 2 changes. The last change was done with Rotella and a Proline brand filter my neighbor bought at Pep Boys on sale for $1.49 after mail in rebate. After 4k miles,the oil looks much better. I looked at several filter mfgrs and found that several (Wix included,not Motor craft) list different filters because of a short and long center post with or without a spring. The predominant reason given for not using most brand filters is a size difference of a few thousansents. This raised the question in my mind of why it is so widly believed that mfgrs who have made filters for decades cannot fit a filter to this engine. On the other hand,billit cap makers with less than 6 years experince with the same engine are generaly thought to fit very well.
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Old 11-26-2009, 05:56 AM
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First - having clean looking oil in a diesel means nothing. In fact, the oil is suppose to suspend soot as part of its formulation. Again - any conclusion on a filters performance is way off base if it is only made on oil color. You WANT your oil to suspend the soot. My oil looks dark quickly. All my oil analysis comes back good for particulates.

There are many documented cases of engine damage due to will-fit oil filters. At $15 a "pop" for the proper filter, what I find amazing is that we are still discussing it and that people are still risking their engine using them.

Documented reasons for the issues with the "will-fit" are not ONLY dimensional, but are also with the materials of construction AND the quality of construction. Now I know someone will say - prove it. To that I will say, I have seen the reports, watched Ford videos on it, talked to techs, seen pics of collapsed will-fit filters, etc. The information is out there and I am convinced (as are the people on 8+ forums that have demonstrated over many years to have the experience and knowledge to be beieved when they say "Stay away from will-fit" filters").

I guess the hardest concept for people is the one about "long-term" damage. Seems that people now days need instant feedback on a decision or they question the recommendation. Now I have seen filters with plastic adapters give people that instant feedback (quick failures and plastic parts getting into the oil system), but other will-fits (that allow bypassing the filter and such) take longer to result in issues.

Regarding the billet caps - I have wondered the same thing. That is why I do not have one. They may be perfectly fine, but I do not know exactly how to be 100% sure.
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Old 11-26-2009, 08:53 AM
origcharger origcharger is offline
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The reason Wix shows 2 differant filters for the 6.0 is because their filters include the attached "cap". The 6.0s in the E series vans have the oil filter mounted down low next to the oil pan with "cap" on the bottom, the "cap" is taller, has a drain plug and there is a spring on the center post.
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Old 11-26-2009, 11:11 AM
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Here is a case of instant feedback...I never have nor never will run anything other than Raco/MC/IH filters in my truck. And after seeing this I hope no one else will.

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Old 11-26-2009, 11:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by da-bees View Post
There has been hundreds of posts regarding this subject,but I still have questions. Dealer did all oil & filter changes from purchase till 5 year warranty expired. Oil hardly turned color between 5k change intervals. After 5 years,I did two changes using Rotella 15w40 and wix 57311 filters. I used wix mainly because that is what was in it after last dealer change,so part # was there for me. Oil continued to look good at 5k intervals. After reading here and other forums that using anything other than Rancor,Motorcraft or IH filters would result in engine damage,I used Rotella with Motorcraft 3C3Z-6731-AA filter. Oil was discolored at 2k and looked auful at 5k for 2 changes. The last change was done with Rotella and a Proline brand filter my neighbor bought at Pep Boys on sale for $1.49 after mail in rebate. After 4k miles,the oil looks much better. I looked at several filter mfgrs and found that several (Wix included,not Motor craft) list different filters because of a short and long center post with or without a spring. The predominant reason given for not using most brand filters is a size difference of a few thousansents. This raised the question in my mind of why it is so widly believed that mfgrs who have made filters for decades cannot fit a filter to this engine. On the other hand,billit cap makers with less than 6 years experince with the same engine are generaly thought to fit very well.
PLEASE all I AM NOT bashing or recommending ANY filters!

You need to understand that most people here are DIE-HARD FORD or work for Ford.

Now having said that I buy Motorcraft at Wal-Mart and IH at the International shop.


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Old 11-26-2009, 01:25 PM
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Originally Posted by zhilton View Post
Here is a case of instant feedback...I never have nor never will run anything other than Raco/MC/IH filters in my truck. And after seeing this I hope no one else will.

YouTube - powerstrokehelp's Channel
awesome videos! Great link to look at!!
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Old 11-26-2009, 02:10 PM
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Racor makes the filter housing and the filter for the 6.0L and 6.4L PSD motors.

Racor has a patent on the entire assembly... so for others to make filters that fit, they have to get a round ther patent, sizing and other "things" that are known to cause performance problems.

If the filter does not seal and fit right, the cap and/or drain valve will not work properly. I also agree about all the "billet caps" that people sell and wonder how they work... but I am not sure if any testing has every been done as there are so many different caps out there.

When it comes to filters, Racor makes them for several brands and these other brands put the filter into their own box. Over thea years, some of these brands have not renewed their agreement with Racor and started selling "will-fit" filters to increase their profits.

Racor sued many of these companies for patent infringment... hense the reason WIX now sells a cap and filter assembly "all in one" in order to get around the patent.

I can buy a Racor made, Motorcraft filter at Walmart for $19.00 each and never worry about it. The last I was told, the WIX is more expensive and some brands have adapter plates in them and they have been known to fail as well.

Stick to what was designed and patented for our motors and do it for less money (or not much more) than the will-fit filters available.
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Old 11-26-2009, 02:33 PM
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Over the last 10 years, - especially in a bad economy - industry has seen incredible changes towards "low cost producer" and "double digit ROI" (return on investment). The way to do it is with cheap materials and cheap labor costs (also by moving production to areas with minimal safety and environmental laws). Now, couple this with the HUGE bonus structures (that has become standard w/ major manufacturing) and you have a recipe for short term profit mentality and little regard for long term reliability.

Back to our trucks. Most folks have paid BIG BUCKS for these trucks. Many people experience problems that Ford COULD have prevented with some design improvements, quality control improvements, etc. Because of this, many people are mad at Ford, pursue the lemon law, and call their vehicle a POS.

That being said, us owners of the 6.0L truck are well advised to be conservative in the operation and maintenance of their truck - for economic reasons AND reliability reasons.

Lets take the oil cooler as an example. I guess by now we have all heard that they tend to plug up. This elevates the oil temperatures - sometimes quite high. Now - we have all also heard of the inferior quality of MANY will-fit oil filters (it has been well documented in the past). Some of the issues have been design, and some have been quality related. One BIG reason for the issues is PATENTS. The proper oil filters were protected by patents. The will-fit companies changed the design to get around patent protection. They also are competing in the "chain store environment" and are trying to be the low cost producer. Some will-fit companies did not put the effort into the new design and therefore dimensional problems were introduced which caused by-passing of the oil filter. These companies also had little cause to put more expensive materials (plastic, glue, filter media, etc) in their filters. There is no doubt in my mind that "minimal acceptance criteria" were used. It is likely that the will-fit / cheaper filters will not hold up to temperatures and pressures outside the normal range of operation - more than likely the plastic used by the major auto manufacturers has superior properties. This way, if their wil-fit filters fail, the comapny can claim abuse and operational issues, rather than admitting that their filter is the root cause. I have seen this many times over in the last 10 years of industrial manufacturing.

It is a fact that some of the will-fits had reliability and performance issues. Could they have fixed them all by now - sure they could. Who really wants to risk their engine on that assumption? Could some be OK to use - possibly so. Again, for a few dollars a year, why would any one take this kind of risk?

When folks want to try other brands, etc., then we all potentially benefit, so I am not knocking that. But folks that try these "new" things need to realize the potential consequences and should let people know that they are going against conventional wisdom. When the consequences are long-term and, if the savings are high enough, it may very well be worth it. In the end, these are all personal decisions, BUT hopefully these forums (and these types of discssions) help folks go into these decisions well-informed. I realize that for the individual $5 savings per filter; 3-5 times a year; is not a lot extra to spend. To a LARGE fleet owner, the savings might be attractive due to quantity. I do like to hear their perspective, but I also realize that most of them do not keep vehicles as long as I do and they can better afford repairs than most individuals.

BTW - I do not work for Ford and I do not buy their filters. Racor and/or International for me! The company I work for sells plastic to the Big 3 and the 3 major Asian auto manufacturers (as well as several European auto manufacturers). Much research goes into the plastic industry. This typically makes the plastic too expensive for most will-fit application.
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Old 11-26-2009, 09:45 PM
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I've never used anything other than MC/Racor. It was interesting to watch the videos in the prior posts, makes me feel better about my decision to spend a little extra on OEM stuff. Go to Dieselfiltersonline.com, you can get Racors for about $14...I buy a years worth of oil and fuel filters at a time to save on shipping.
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Old 11-26-2009, 11:30 PM
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Thanks go to each of you for commenting. I am allways pleased when bismic considers a topic worthy of response and apreciate his candor and analitical approach to subjects. I enjoy reading what others have to say on this and some other forums but rarly comment in view of that all corners of the topics have generaly been explored by someone already. Oil and filters imho remains somwhat murky. There are two points I wish to demonstrate. #1 Several AM catalogs list optional choices without making it clear which fits what and OE only lists one. I think that may very well account for much damage that is thought to be faulty desighn. #2 It would be benificial if each of us take time to personaly research a topic if there appears to be undiscovered fact(s). I have no brand preferrence nor desire to be frugal. End OF ORIGIONAL POINTS.,,,,, That said,you probly wonder if you addressed my consurns. Somewhat ,maybe or yes but it went over my head. The following is simply one man's opinion. The suspension of soot is a function of oil,and then only until it can be traped by the filter. What i reffered to as "discolored"looked different than normal. Although appearance is not the end all factor while judging oil,it is the best indicator of other more important things short of lab analasis. I wish that anyone who has a catastropic filter failure would just name the manufacture instead of lumping all in "will fit". That only reinforces the appearance the speaker is attempting to drive sales away from others and into FMC'S waiting arms. As for patent protection,That is true of every product sold in USA. I should think Ford would not want to stack insult atop injury by making it cumbersome to maintaine an already rediculiousy fikle engine. Thanks again for your indulgence and keep up the good work. I will just snoop around some more,never know what will turn up.
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Old 11-27-2009, 12:12 AM
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YouTube - powerstrokehelp's Channel
informative and convincing video ,I say you get what you pay for in parts and materials ,go for the best why gamble with the rest ?
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Old 11-27-2009, 12:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zhilton View Post
Here is a case of instant feedback...I never have nor never will run anything other than Raco/MC/IH filters in my truck. And after seeing this I hope no one else will.

YouTube - powerstrokehelp's Channel
Informative and convincing video,I believe you get what you pay for in life and anything mechanical,Buy the best dont gamble on the rest.
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Old 11-27-2009, 04:09 AM
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tim.burke.167
Uh, that same link was provided at the beginning of this post, #4. BTW welcome to FTE, 03pwrstrk. And I believe most here do the proper 3 F's- fluids, filters and fuel. If they decide to take the risk, it is on them.
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Old 11-27-2009, 09:54 AM
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One of the reasons I come here is not always for the technical science of a subject but for the real life experience of the people using the various products offered. Nasa had decades of science and tests behind the shuttle program and still lost two of them. If I hit my thumb with a hammer and tell you it hurt are you going to beleive me or do I have to hit your thumb also and document it for you to beleive me? Therefore and without going any further out in left field I come here to learn from the practical experience of others. If 5 people out of 100 people had a failure due to an A/M product, those are not bad odds but why shold I take that 5% chance when for a couple of bucks more I don't have to worry about a 15,000 buck engine plus the down time associated with it. I tend to hate cliches but remember, Penny wise and pound foolish. On a closing note feel free to gleen any or none of the info offered here and bottom line do what you are comfortable with and remember all of the people that have come to these threads and others crying about voided warranties because of A/M products. Wether they actually caused the problem or not is not the question. You gave Ford or any of the other manf. "Just Cause" Sorry for the ramble and hope everyone had a good holiday. Mike
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Old 11-27-2009, 11:04 AM
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tim.burke.167
Well said, Mike!
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