Paint Question?

Country705 · #1 (**permalink**) 10-30-2009, 11:01 PM

What paint is more durable for a truck metallic paint or Candy paint. I am not sure of the difference however i have found the color i want and its avaliable in both metallic and candy. I am going to pay to have a professional paint job so that i can have the color i want and know it gets done right however this is the only company i have found that has the EXACT color i want not something that is darker or lighter.

gt350h · #2 (**permalink**) 10-30-2009, 11:35 PM

The less film build the better. If you can accomplish your desired color in a normal basecoat clearcoat that will be the more durable finish. But you aren't really talking a whole lot of difference in durability. I would look at other aspects of the candy vs. base only. Candy is going to cost alot more. Its also extremely hard to make even, you have to paint the whole car together. It takes quite a bit longer. There's really alot of things that make candy a big pain in the butt.

e-tek · #3 (**permalink**) 10-31-2009, 10:54 PM

I'm pretty sure it has nothing to do with the base or Kandy and everything to do with the clear. Kandy is just a 3 stage paint process, but still needs to be cleared. Have the shop shoot 5 coats of clear and you'll get max durability - even if you color sand it.

They use powder coating for wheels in order to maximize the mil thickness and therefor durabilty. With liquid oaint you may get 2mils thickness, but with powder paint you can get up to 5 mils thickness, therefor max durabilty. Kinda opposite of what gt350 says - not sure why...

gt350h · #4 (**permalink**) 11-01-2009, 02:17 AM

Powdercoat's a bit different. Its a baked on process completely different then spray on paint. I know E-tek and I don't quite see eye to eye on the basecoat thing, but I promise you, the more basecoat/candy you have the weaker the product. I can absolutely prove my premise. Spray a piece of metal with epoxy primer, then base, then candy, then clear. Then take that pice and a razor blade and cut a cross hatch pattern like a tic tac toe into it. Then put a pice of duct tape on it and pull it straight off. If it fails, it will fail at either the basecoat or the candy. Its a proven fact and the reason that paint companies are requiring a catalyst in basecoat for any tri-stages or candies. Its not because they're prettier, its because you're putting on twice the millage of weak product and at that thickness it fails. And thicker is NOT always better. The problem with standard thinking on paint is that its based on old products. Guys from back in the day remember putting on 30 coats of lacquer and it being way better. Lacquer primer was 16% solids on a good day. That means that primer you spray on your car, when it dries, will shrink down to 16% of what you sprayed. New primers are in the 50's%. The same things apply to clear. I can spray 2 coats of todays primer and it will equal 7-8 coats of old school primer, same with clear. Spraying too much of todays stuff is worse. In fact, I have to look at a job next Thursday to warranty because of blistering. I'm going to hit it with an electronic mill gauge. If the reading is too high it cannot be warrantied. I have a feeling there's too much basecoat on it because the guy couldn't get the color right, so he just kept putting more on, tinting, putting more on, tinting and so on. But, like I said, there's a million other reasons not to do a candy. What if you get hit? Its next to impossible to match a candy, even harder to blend a candy. Plus, standard candies are made with dye. Dye fades much faster than pigment. Even if you write down your air pressures, temperature, spray gun, coats etc...., you can't adjust for fade. I'd stick to the basecoat version of the color if you're satisfied with it. This is such a long reply for a pretty simple question. Sorry about that.

e-tek · #5 (**permalink**) 11-01-2009, 07:06 PM

Actually, I agree with you on the above - sounds like you have more experience in the technical minutae than I do anyways - and you make a good argument!

However, I think (OP correct me if I'm wrong) that the OP wanted to know about durability. He was thinking that there might be a difference between a base and a candy in durabilty. I certainly don't know if there is, but the point is moot. Either way it'd be covered with clear coat and that's where the durabilty is.

My original answer states just that. The standard is 3 coats clear. I would go as high as 5 for durabilty, esp. if it was going to see some scuffing in the bush and subsequent sanding/polishing.

gt350h · #6 (**permalink**) 11-02-2009, 12:31 AM

I agree, cutting and buffing usually takes off 1-2 coats, so five would leave you three. Sounds about perfect.

Country705 · #7 (**permalink**) 11-02-2009, 03:54 PM

thanks guys for the help.

Action4478 · #8 (**permalink**) 11-02-2009, 07:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gt350h

I agree, cutting and buffing usually takes off 1-2 coats, so five would leave you three. Sounds about perfect.

What are you spraying that needs 5 coats . I use a generic (not high solids) ( I hate the high solids )clear that calls for 2 coats , & I sand & buff everything ?...

Anytime I have used more than 2 coats ,it seems to die back ...(shrinks way too much)...

gt350h · #9 (**permalink**) 11-02-2009, 10:16 PM

Here's the technical answer. Recommended dry film for clearcoat is 2.0 mils. A good quality high build clear puts on 1.2 to 1.4 mils per coat. Your cheap stuff is putting on about .8 to maybe 1.0 mils per coat. 2 coats sprayed thick gives you 2.0 mils. Wet or dry sanding and buffing takes off about 1 to 1.5 mils. When spraying 2 coats of the generic stuff, then cutting and buffing, you're leaving .5 to 1.0 mil on the car and your paint company wants at least 2. I'd say if that car isn't a garage car you'd probably have a 1-2ish year life expectancy. On the dying back thing, its usually caused by lack of airflow, incorrect solvent, and a few other possible reasons. The newer high solids stuff really is great, but it sometimes requires different equipment, just like when the old timers switched from lacquers to enamels. They were better, but they didn't spray the same. Shrinking back is also something that isn't as common in high solids clear. Its higher solids, less solvent. You can spray 3 coats of your cheap clear and its the same as 2 coats of a good high solids.

Action4478 · #10 (**permalink**) 11-03-2009, 09:15 AM

I have used the high solids , that is why I settled on the clear I am using now , sprays the same & holds up just like the PPG Deltron DAU That we used for years . The high solids IIRC were designed for air quality , less coats were assumed to release less VOC into the air . Hmm, raise the air pressure to attain atomization , putting more overspray into the system, is supposed to be better than three coats of the older finish . DAU didn't make the grade , so it is gone . I have been using this clear for a very long time , after it is sprayed , it only needs nibbing , I don't even come close to removing 50% of the finish .(we are trying to match OE texture & gloss .)
I don't often do a complete , but if I do , I spray with PPG's omni system , is is easier to keep the entire vehicle wet , but again , it is only 2 coats ,nibbed if needed .Custom finishes are a different story , But I only do them on motorcycles.
During the times we used lacquers, we always had the veh owner return after 3-4 weeks for a polish, now we don't need to wait more than a day . The Clear Is a 4-1 ,no Reducer.
BTW , I provide a lifetime warranty on the finish , & have never had a come back

gt350h · #11 (**permalink**) 11-03-2009, 11:08 AM

Sorry, I'm assuming if the guy's doing a candy job he's probably going to want to cut and buff the whole thing and not just nib it. Which Omni clear do you use? 260? 161? Which one is 4:1?

Action4478 · #12 (**permalink**) 11-03-2009, 11:33 AM

260 W/ 168 4-2

You're right if the guy wants flat , it will be cut deep ...
I then may only add one more coat , but I do this every day & know how not to ruin it .

I use an orbital sander that draws water from a bucket , & dry with a squeegee , (gives instant feed back )

What we did with candy ,was do all the paint work , stripes , decals ect. clear it with 2 coats . let it dry a day , then wet sand with 800- 1200 . then clear again with one wet coat . Ends up looking like it was dipped

gt350h · #13 (**permalink**) 11-03-2009, 11:46 AM

I agree, cutting and re-clearing is good. But Omni MC260 quick clear should be saved for used car lots and door jambs.

Action4478 · #14 (**permalink**) 11-03-2009, 12:07 PM

What don't you like about it ? , I have had very good luck with it..&...its almost twice the cost of what I use every day. Dries hard , hold up great . I put it on my sons 01 ranger in 02, & never touched it . Daily driver on & off road . still looks like the day I sprayed it ..

Theres another clear I use occasionally, called smart clear , from finish master . 100.00 a kit the last time I used it . Hard to see the car in the booth through the fog though...

gt350h · #15 (**permalink**) 11-03-2009, 12:13 PM

I don't know. I just haven't had great luck with it. Get a lot of people that have it last about 3 years and then want us to warrranty it. Its ok. I would use it for a spot job or something. There's alot more UV stabilizers in the MC161 and it sprays alot nicer in my opinion. Its just slower. But longevity and layout is nicer. I actually prefer DC4000 or DCU 2002, but that's probably expensive.