Once again, as the weather turns cooler, nights chilly, I see the soccer Moms, others, in their brand new (or 1-3 year old) Expeditions, Grand Cherokees, Explorers, Tahoes, F-150s, Silverados giving their vehicles a daily 20-30 minute morning "warm-up" at 50 degree mornings...
These people still probably pump the gas pedal at start-up, and think they are doing their vehicles a favor by this practice.
Start up, 10 second idle, and in gear driving normally will warm any vehicle 12 years old or newer up, much more efficiently.
It is probably more of a comfort issue compounded by lack of knowledge and not RTFM... reading the manual.
Lots of people like to have their car toasty warm for their 10 minute sprint to school/groceries/whatever, often not enough to get the engine warmed enough to heat the cabin. So, they run the engine to have the car warmed up for their whole trip.
As early as 1974, my owners manual said not to run the engine more than a minute or so to warm up. This was on a carbureated engine with automatic choke. If I recall, the manual said you could cause damage to the smog system and burn fuel needlessly.
The modern fuel injected engine with computer controls warms up marvellously fast at least to drive. Even in sub teen weather in Oregon, all my vehicles fired right up and were ready to roll as soon as I could pop the parking brake. The cabin was cold for 10 minutes or more tho. So that takes us back to soccer moms wanting to be comfortable driving in their night gowns.
You are right, Jim. In fact, I have an original 1956 Ford Fairlane owners manual, that was my Dad's car that he bought new in early October, 1955. Had a 292 Y-Block Thunderbird V8, 2-door hardtop. I remember the car as a young kid and it was one of the first cars I learned how to wash and wax by myself. I remember my Dad used to paint the chrome black with black tire paint (very light, almost like a stain the paint was) to protect the chrome from pitting and dulling over the northeast Ohio winter where I grew up. Did a great job too, in mid April, he'd remove the paint with a kerosene solution, then follow up with some chrome polish and wax, and that chrome would shine as new 7-8-9 years later.
Anyway, in this Ford manual, it says to only idle the car briefly when it was in it's fast idle warm up, depress accelerator to resume normal idle speed, and then to "drive immediately at low speed" which will warm the engine and transmission sooner than extended idling which can and will overheat exhaust manifolds and the exhaust system. Oh, I know people want their toasty warm cabins, but don't realize the damage they're doing, carbon deposit buildup on piston tops, valves, ect due to unecessary idling. Plus, this practice also kills the overall life of the cats, overheating them which can drastically lose their efficiency at 50,000 miles + down the road.
I once saw a friend's Buick LeSabre that wasn't running right, due to a faulty 02 sensor. Extensive idling, running much too rich, and the cats and exhaust manifolds were glowing cherry red, extreme case for sure, but very dangerous with that type of high heat.
Ed
Last edited by Ed; 10-27-2009 at 07:28 PM.
Reason: Spelling error
Once again, as the weather turns cooler, nights chilly, I see the soccer Moms, others, in their brand new (or 1-3 year old) Expeditions, Grand Cherokees, Explorers, Tahoes, F-150s, Silverados giving their vehicles a daily 20-30 minute morning "warm-up" at 50 degree mornings...
These people still probably pump the gas pedal at start-up, and think they are doing their vehicles a favor by this practice.
Start up, 10 second idle, and in gear driving normally will warm any vehicle 12 years old or newer up, much more efficiently.
So glad it's not my truck and it's theirs...
Ed, those folks must have relatives living over here in SW Va too!!!!
OR, there is an epidmic of ignorance, pervasive in the country!!!! lol
Yup it's probably a combination of ignorance from not having read the owners manual & or not caring about their equiptment, just wanting to be comfortable for the drive.
Neighbor next door would start & leave his 65 Chevy on the top setting of the fast idle cam for 15-30 minutes every winter morning, while he went back inside for breakfast.
Wasn't long before that ole Chevys pistons were swapping holes!!!!
He would often fuss about the oil that engine used, but never equated his cold start proceedure with the probem.
No amount of explanation would make any difference, so I just gave up!!!!
Some human conditions just can't be fixed!!!!
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The BMW owners manual just says to keep it below 4000 rpm until the temperature is in the normal range. It is already in the 20's some mornings up here, but all I do is wait for the oil pressure to stabilize, usually less than 30 seconds, and drive away slowly.
Grandpa lived in NorCal, on US 50 between Sacramento and Lake Tahoe at the 3000 foot level. The poor '65 Plymouth would sit there idling for 10-15 minutes to "warm up" even on Summer mornings. At least it had an automatic choke. The '53 Chevy Pickup suffered the same thing with the hand choke pulled out.
I was reading a dear TOM and RAY article in the paper a couple of weeks ago that gets right to the heart of this very topic.
Tom and Ray Magliossi both say that warming up a modern vehicle will not do any harm to any component internal or external. They say that the computer meters only the amount of fuel needed to operate the vehicle and a chance of carbon build-up is greatly minimized.
Look at all the taxi cabs, first responders and police cars that idle endlessly and they seem to run just fine for many many years.
Now, I'm still of the old school belief and as soon as high idle kicks out, you drive away allowing the engine and transmission to warm up together.
Tim
__________________ SCPO United States Coast Guard Retired '04 Expedition XLT 4x2 '99 Taurus Wagon SE 24V '88 F-150 4x4 XLT Lariat 5.8L 5Spd
Rights of Passage: CPO Initiation, Submarine Qualified (SS), Golden Shellback, Blue Nose, Order of the Ditch
I did wanted to response to this post several days ago to express my opinion that "idling a vehicle for 15 - 30 minutes will cause damage" is absurd, but I was afraid I would be walking into a turkey shoot and didn't want to risk making the natives restless. Thank God for Tom and Ray Magliossi. At least there are two people who share my opinion. Although I don't consider 15 - 30 minutes to be "excessive idling", I do agree you waste precious gas and it is unnecessary. Anyways, I feel it not a wise idea to leave your vehicle unattended while idling for an extended period of time.
Yup, with heated O2 sensors that come online quickly after a cold start & with MAF sensors, PCV valves & computer controlled fuel trim, teamed up with todays crankcase lube recipies, long cold engine idle is not as hard on todays engines, as in years past.
For 37 years my drive cycle was start it up cold from having to sit outside at whatever ambient temp, let it idle down some & dirve away at 30mph for 3 miles, then a 12 mile 55-70 mph interstate sprint to my exit, then a 1.5 mile cool down to the work twenty.
Six month oil & filter changes with Havoline & Motorcraft filters found the top & bottom end of the engines were squeeky clean, no sludge, gum, varnish, or carbon deposits & no oil consumption between oci's.
Driving off right away at 30 mph & I had the beginnings of heat in 1.5-2 miles, (so no need to warm it up in the driveway for 30 min) & it was fully warmed up in 3 miles, when I jumped on the Interstate.
But to each his own, it's an individuals vehicle, they can pour in whatever & operate it however it makes them comfortable, but it is wise to refer to that great unread document called "Owenrs Manual"!!!! lol
__________________
99 Ranger 4dr 4x2 4.0L 5spd auto 3.55L/S Payload pkg2 tow pkg
Details are trifles but trifles make perfection & perfection is no trifle
(Ben Franklin)
Our signature is a sign of a job completed autograph your work with excellence
The only exception to the discussion here is starting an engine in a very cold environment (-30C or colder, or even at 0F for mineral oils).
If you do not use synthetic oil with a very low pour point, at any temperature slightly above the pour point of your virgin oil, you should not start the car and drive away because that is the time when the motor is basically running on very little oil pressure.
Here is the pour point of a common name brand dino oil:
It is listed as "Low temperature cranking viscosity" and a temperature it "gags" at.
Used oil (in sump) will normally congeal higher than this temperature.
So, if you start to approach this temperature, starting the car, giving it 2 or 3 minutes to "warm up" before you move is a prudent move to make sure that oil is actually being pumped to the critical areas like cam lobes....
On real trucks... some of them have systems that prime the pump and get the oil pumping well before the engine is started.
Mobile 1 engineers sometime ago say that most (like 90%) of the wear happen in the first few minutes before the oil pressure hits normal and oil pumped reaches the critical areas like the cams.
So, if your operating conditions approximate this.... warm it up a few minutes...
For some reason BP does not list all specs in that Product Datat Sheet. Pour point is not the same as the Cold Crank test temperature. Select the PDS for Chevron Supreme Motor Oils, that lists all of the specs, in the page linked below.
I have an Explorer with the 4.0L V6. I typically let the engine idle for 4-6 minutes in 40F or less temps. This is usually enough time to slightly move the temperature needle off the peg. My cars see cold weather every year as I alternate between FL and TN.
I have a simple way of gauging whether the engine is ready to take off or not. When I put the car in gear and drive away if I can hear the lifters they aren't getting enough oil which in cold weather means the oil hasn't warmed up enough. If I do the "thirty second warmup" then the first five minutes of my drive I am listening to the lifters and I don't like that - that's on any car I've ever owned.
I'm not so rushed that 4-6 minutes is going to kill me and I'm not so poor that this extremely short idle time is going to break the bank. That's just me though. I'm not telling anyone to do anything I do "because I'm right", it has just worked well for me. Do what works well for you, that's my advice.
Would be interesting to know what oil & filter your using, that produces noisey lifters on a cold start!!!!
Exactly what I was thinking as well. No mention of oil or filters. I guess he does use melted elephant fat and toilet paper. Would that be the double roll or the cheap single roll? LOL
Tim
__________________ SCPO United States Coast Guard Retired '04 Expedition XLT 4x2 '99 Taurus Wagon SE 24V '88 F-150 4x4 XLT Lariat 5.8L 5Spd
Rights of Passage: CPO Initiation, Submarine Qualified (SS), Golden Shellback, Blue Nose, Order of the Ditch
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What Is WRONG With These People?
