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Old 10-08-2009, 01:13 AM
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Injection pump leaks... rebuild or replace?

Hi,
My 1991 f350 7.3 IDI injection pump seems to leak from the bottom of it.
It results as a lot of fuel on the top of the engine.

I just got the truck inspected by a mechanic who advise to replace it by a new one... expenseve solution (700$ + time).
I saw rebuilt pump for 330$ on ebay...
Or I might bring my truck to a shop for rebuild the actual pump. But I do not know how that would cost.

I circled a pump picture to show from where it is leaking.
http://i949.photobucket.com/albums/a...iteau/pump.jpg

I rather go with the cheaper/good-enough option since I have other repare to do on the truck before to hit the road for a long road-trip to Mexico, towing a 7000 lbs 5th wheel.

What sould I do : replace for new, replace for rebuilt or rebuild?

Thanks again!

Pierre
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Old 10-08-2009, 05:44 AM
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Would this pump fit? I've never worked with this company but I believe others from this list have. I also have never swapped a pump....

Pensacola Fuel Injection | Worlds #1 Diesel Rebuilder - FORD 6.9L - 7.3L :: REBUILT FUEL INJECTION PUMPS


If it was me I probably would buy the rebuilt pump for $300. My thinking is that if this company specialized in rebuilding the pumps (or their supplier does) then they probably do a good job.... I wonder if they have a warranty?
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Old 10-08-2009, 08:38 AM
farmert farmert is offline
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Do you have a good diesel injection shop in your town? If so I would have your pump rebuilt. Where I live in SD it costs about 450 to get a pump rebuilt. I have heard people having problems with online rebuilders, such as the one listed above. They have great costomer service but their products are lacking. Just my .02 .
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Old 10-08-2009, 10:27 AM
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Farmert; I don't think there is good rebuilder where I live. I might have to drive to Vancouver...

RedBud; I think this pump would fit... looks like a good deal!

Thanks!
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Old 10-08-2009, 03:25 PM
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Online rebuilders can't really be classified as rebuilders. What they do is take a core and fix only what caused the pump to fail. They don't measure wear and replace worn parts like they should. Rather than calling them rebuilt pumps, they should call them repaired pumps. I have bought a couple from Pensacola diesel. Their customer service is great, and they do stand behind their product. However, I bought the first pump and had it fail in less than 500 miles or so. The second one has been going strong for between 20 and 30 thousand miles. If you're installing them yourself and don't consider your time being worth a ton, I'd recommend buying an online pump. If you can't or won't install yourself, I'd probably recommend another route.
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Old 10-08-2009, 08:46 PM
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The thing is, I am hitting the road to mexico November 1st... so I need something reliable on the first try.
I went to Lordco today, they sale their pump 600$ and it is a rebuilt...
I would not know where to get a new one???
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Old 10-09-2009, 12:21 AM
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Pierre, this is something that is harder to answer or offer advice on.

Unfortunately its really hard to know what you are getting when you buy a rebuilt pump. What sucks even more is I don't know of any source for new pumps so rebuilt are your only option. It is possible to buy new injectors easily for a moderately higher price, but not at any price for the injector pump it seems.

In your case, you basically just have a leaking seal at the timing advance/retard plunger, and the rebuilder probably knows its only a tiny O ring that costs pennies to replace. However, he makes more money with less time by simply replacing the pump with a rebuilt one he has on the shelf. Then he takes your old pump, replaces the seal and if the internals all check out, sells it to the next guy as a "rebuilt".

I don't know if this is breaking any forum rules, but there is a user by the name of Agnem on "oilburners.net" (VERY good forum like this one) that has access to a rebuilder who goes through the process of actually making the pump as good as new again (actual machining). So far he has sold to several members there and they all swear by it but the price is higher than what you would pay for something from pensacola diesel. Although with the exchange rate right now it might not be quite so bad.

He offers a high performance pump that will turn the sky black and blow the tires off with the settings turned up, but also sells a mild pump that is roughly under $600 USD. From the experience of current owners of the pump, the fuel economy is also slightly better than other "new" pumps because internal clearances are tighter. There is also the higher cost of shipping and you need to send your pump to be rebuilt into the performance or mild pump. He does not do a simple swap like others. I don't know if he can deliver in the time you need, but in my view he does offer the best pump you can buy. I'm probably going to buy one eventually, but am putting it off for as long as I can. Also, the price depends on what your pump actually needs replaced, so final cost is not fixed. I have a really hard time with that one. If you register on that forum, you can search the old discussions for the "moose pump" and draw your own conclusions. Registration is free just like here.

Most that buy from pensacola have good experience but some had nothing but trouble. The good news is they seem to honor their warranty and will refund or replace if you are not happy. Although if it breaks while you are on the road, that isn't much help. They do have the best price right now though. Really hard to beat $311USD.

Since pensacola does not require a core return, you could try installing one of their pumps and get a seal kit to repair yours as a spare for on the road should the new one fail. Actually, you should start a list of parts and tools you will need for a "just in case" scenario (filters, belts, etc).

Sorry I can't offer a more absolute answer. I'm not happy with the situation regarding injector pumps for our trucks, but it seems we have no choice but to buy rebuilt ones with 1 year warranties.
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Old 10-10-2009, 02:28 AM
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The Moose pump looks awsome for a "truck project" that can sits in the garage for long times. Slowly rebuilding each parts.
Unfortunately, this is not my case here... I have to take my rig out every day to go to work...
Best case scenario is a Pensacola pump that work at the first try...
And so, I have ordered one... 311$ is a chance I am ready to take!

But the suggestion David made about rebuilding my old pump is a great idea!
Moreover, my mechanic gives me the possibility to teach me how to swap the pump...
Who sales the seal kit?

It is too bad that there is no reliable and fast solution for broken IP out there!!!

Anyway, I will recive my Pensacola on thuesday (fast delivery!) and install it ASAP!

BTW, David, I just boucht a huge "mexican proof" DeeZee tool box to store "just in case" tools and stuff... But so far, I just have a complete belt kit, oil and fuel filter, K&N filter, basic tools... WHAT ELSE???

Thanks
Pierre
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Old 10-10-2009, 03:03 AM
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Ah, I didn't realize your truck is your daily driver. Forget the moose then.

This is the seal kit for the pump: (your mechanic should also be able to supply it, but pensacola might also carry it if you ask)

Roosa Master Stanadyne Diesel Injection Pump seal kit on eBay.ca (item 220488052893 end time 30-Oct-09 10:14:52 EDT)

Rebuilding the whole pump can be risky if you don't do it right, but I suspect the seal you have leaking doesn't require a rebuild to replace. My guess is part # 51 on this exploded view is the leaking seal. Clean working conditions are mandatory.

Click the image to open in full size.

If your mechanic doesn't tell you how to swap the pump, we can tell you because its really easy.

Good plan with the locking toolbox. Don't see spare coolant on your list.
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Old 10-10-2009, 10:29 AM
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Not sure if they are new parts or rebuilds but Silver state ford sells IPs for under $500. I plan to replace mine and was thinking of useing thiers when I do.
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Old 10-10-2009, 11:39 PM
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David, I guess you are right concerning the seal.
I will try to have the rebuild kit and only change the leaking seal for now, since I have a lot of other things to do before to hit the road!
Coolant you said... I take good note of that!
I will keep the exploded view in my computer just in case...

I heard that what is tricky is to TIME the pump...

P.
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Old 10-11-2009, 07:01 AM
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I heard that what is tricky is to TIME the pump...

P.[/quote]
If you do it like these guys will describe there is no timing involved.
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Old 10-11-2009, 10:37 AM
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Finding someone that still has the equipment to time an IDI in working condition that knows how to use it is getting harder every day.

When you remove the IP, remove the cover plate on the front of the IP drive gear cover and remove three 5/16 twelve point bolts.
Now wipe off the top of the IP neck where it bolts to the IP drive gear cover.
You should see a couple scribe lines.
Pay attaention to where they are in relation to each other.
Next remove the IP from the IP drive gear cover by removing three nuts from studs on the rear of the cover.

When all of the fuel supply and return lines are removed, the wires unhooked and the throttle cable unhooked, slide the IP back and out leaving the timing gear in place.

With a NA engine, the injection lines can be left on the IP, just unhook at the injectors and the whole assembly will lift out.

When you put it back in, the alignment dowel in the IP drive shaft will get the IP back in time as long as the gear has not been removed.

Now get the scribe lines about they were before you removed the IP and your timing should be what it was before the IP was removed.

To fine tune, top of IP to the passenger side is advance.
When the cold start timing advance is on, the engine should have a bit of a rattle that goes away when the cold timing advance kicks off.

Not hard, just takes a little time.
When you move the IP, the nuts should be retightened before the engine is started.
Also if you fine tune the timing, small movements of the IP each time and try it again.
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Old 10-16-2009, 10:14 PM
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I have installed the new IP.
Works fine so far.
But black smoke when ask for power... bad timing???

I am waiting for my new exhaust to do the fine tuning... I think it is gonna change with a bigger pipe?.

I have changed the lift pump as well...

Pierre
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Old 10-16-2009, 10:43 PM
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How far did you drive it? There will be some air to clear for the first few miles.

After that, black smoke could be from timing. At this point you can try to fine tune it yourself, or take it to your mechanic to time it for you (if you trust him).

To time it by ear, the ideal setting has the engine making a louder clack for the first few seconds after first started cold (cold advance must be working for this). The louder knock should go away in roughly 30 seconds of idling. That should get you close, but it won't be ideal.

I timed my engine by the amount of smoke at WOT but its probably still not perfect. If your engine is louder than before, it could be too far advanced. If its quieter, it could be too far retarded. Both situations will produce smoke the harder you push it.

The alignment marks on the gear cover and injector pump are only relevant to the very first pump installed in the truck at the factory. After you replace the pump, its only a generally guide and is not as accurate as it was for the factory assembly.

I've been meaning to keep an eye out on Ebay for a timing meter, but no luck so far
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Old 10-16-2009, 10:43 PM
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