Recipe for more power from a 302 EFI
#46
10-04-2009, 10:16 AM
86stepsideF150- To go back to your original post- There's is nothing wrong with a Comp Cams Magnum Double Roller. Comp Cams makes quality stuff and I think their cams are the best OTS ones out there. I believe there is a better choice for a timing set than that one though.
Timing sets come in 5 grades: factory, double chain, true roller, gears, and belt drive.
The Comp is at #2. Cloye's has made a name for itself in timing sets and set the standard by which all others are measured. For about the same money, you can step up to a true roller from Cloye's:Northern Auto Parts: - Cloyes Street Series True Roller.
It's something to consider when you get back to the point of buying stuff.
Timing sets come in 5 grades: factory, double chain, true roller, gears, and belt drive.
The Comp is at #2. Cloye's has made a name for itself in timing sets and set the standard by which all others are measured. For about the same money, you can step up to a true roller from Cloye's:Northern Auto Parts: - Cloyes Street Series True Roller.
It's something to consider when you get back to the point of buying stuff.
#47
10-04-2009, 10:01 PM
You should have. If you KNOW but I only BELIEVE (implying that you are right and I'm founding my statements on incorrect information,) then prove it. Do some research to back up your claim that a crankshaft goes "slogs through 5 quarts of oil." Your perception of what is happening in the crankcase and what a windage tray really does is totally wrong.
Keeping the oil that sloshes around in the bottom of the motor is a side benefit and not the main purpose of a windage tray. There are baffled oil pans that do a better job of that.
You should have argued that if you take the glass of water and throw it into the BACK of the fan the blades would get wet. It's called a windage tray for a reason. The whirling crankshaft creates a vortex that traps oil and it spins around with the crank. While the crankshaft is trying to throw off this cloud of oil, the spinning oil sucks in what is returning from the top of the motor to the bottom. Hence there is a perpetual cloud of oil around the crankshaft that creates drag. A windage tray separates the crank from the oil. This can be measured on a dyno.
A crank scraper works in almost the same way, it cuts the cloud of oil off the crank and returns it to the pan. If you look at a crank scraper you'll see it's spaced a good distance from the crank, but it still removes oil from it.
Now for the oil that splashes up from the pan. When cornering the oil climbs the side of the pan. The crank is still way far away from it, but the vortex will suck it up, contributing to the small tornado of oil. The vortex will only hold so much oil as it is constantly getting shed so the effects of the splash are short lived. Same thing for acceleration and big bumps.
A windage tray has many benefits, but 40 HP is a hell of a stretch. What it does doesn't equate directly to HP. It reduces drag which will give you a few hundred more RPM. It reduces the weight of the reciprocating assembly, allowing for faster acceleration.
Some better arguments for the benefit of a windage tray can be made than HP. It reduces oil aeration. Air in the oil reduces the lubricity and at 30% will destroy bearings. So a windage tray can help your motor live longer. The best argument of all is that it will pay for itself in fuel economy. The amount of HP it frees up may not be that great, (10 hp is probably closer to reality), but a small gain in fuel economy will add up over time.
If you can afford one, great, they are worthwhile additions to ANY motor. If you are looking to get the most HP for the buck and have to limit the upgrades I'll give it the axe first.
I'll agree to disagree, and now you know something.
Keeping the oil that sloshes around in the bottom of the motor is a side benefit and not the main purpose of a windage tray. There are baffled oil pans that do a better job of that.
You should have argued that if you take the glass of water and throw it into the BACK of the fan the blades would get wet. It's called a windage tray for a reason. The whirling crankshaft creates a vortex that traps oil and it spins around with the crank. While the crankshaft is trying to throw off this cloud of oil, the spinning oil sucks in what is returning from the top of the motor to the bottom. Hence there is a perpetual cloud of oil around the crankshaft that creates drag. A windage tray separates the crank from the oil. This can be measured on a dyno.
A crank scraper works in almost the same way, it cuts the cloud of oil off the crank and returns it to the pan. If you look at a crank scraper you'll see it's spaced a good distance from the crank, but it still removes oil from it.
Now for the oil that splashes up from the pan. When cornering the oil climbs the side of the pan. The crank is still way far away from it, but the vortex will suck it up, contributing to the small tornado of oil. The vortex will only hold so much oil as it is constantly getting shed so the effects of the splash are short lived. Same thing for acceleration and big bumps.
A windage tray has many benefits, but 40 HP is a hell of a stretch. What it does doesn't equate directly to HP. It reduces drag which will give you a few hundred more RPM. It reduces the weight of the reciprocating assembly, allowing for faster acceleration.
Some better arguments for the benefit of a windage tray can be made than HP. It reduces oil aeration. Air in the oil reduces the lubricity and at 30% will destroy bearings. So a windage tray can help your motor live longer. The best argument of all is that it will pay for itself in fuel economy. The amount of HP it frees up may not be that great, (10 hp is probably closer to reality), but a small gain in fuel economy will add up over time.
If you can afford one, great, they are worthwhile additions to ANY motor. If you are looking to get the most HP for the buck and have to limit the upgrades I'll give it the axe first.
I'll agree to disagree, and now you know something.
What are you arguing about now??? Is this a post on why one needs a windage tray? The first time I mentioned a windage tray was this sentence:
" If you want the best you can replace the main cap bolts with studs and put a girdle and windage tray on it."
Please notice I said "if you want the best."
The next time I mentioned a windage tray I said:
"Something that I found interesting was a report that a windage tray gained 40hp. I guess it takes a lot of power to slog the crank through the oil. So adding that to your motor is a quick way to pick up HP. " I didn't say you will always get 40hp but you get some if not a lot and maybe it will be 40hp. And it's only a fifty dollar part. Guys put new intakes on that cost hundreds to get 20hp. I think a fifty dollar part that can get 10 hp more is a good deal and with this you might get 40hp, others have.
You got a real problem bud. You might consider professional help about this. If this post upset you to this level your life is not in order. You might even need medication. You are going off like this over a fifty dollar part????? You first started out saying that they are not worth it and now you say "If you can afford one, great, they are worthwhile additions to ANY motor." They're only fifty bucks!! Who can't afford fifty bucks when they are building a high performance motor??? Something is wrong with you!! You should try going to church or something. You're not right in the head.
#48
10-04-2009, 10:55 PM
I have used a store on ebay with good luck. It's called “the mustang depot”. They have shorty headers for $95. Jegs has the cobra intake for $390. Comp Cams Extreme 4x4 camshaft and lifter, #CL11-231-3, for $210. Comp Cams Magnum roller timing chain set, #2120, $37. Stainless steel rocker arms, from the mustang depot on ebay, $155. Rod and main bearing about $70. Ford racing windage tray from jegs $55. Windage tray mounting kit $35, from jegs. Gasket set about $125. Labor to grind valves, install push rod guide plates and face heads I'd guess around $250 (I haven't had to pay for this in a long time so it's a guess). This all comes to $1422. That's a new hi performance motor for under fifteen hundred dollars. Sounds like a damn good deal to me. You might also think about a new water pump. The mustang depot has aluminum high volume ones for about $65. This still brings it in at under fifteen hundred.
CL11-231-3: 65-96 Chevy396-454ci- http://www.summitracing.com/search/?...11-231-3&dds=1. What firing order does that use in a SBF?
Stainless rockers from TMD: 1.6 x 3/8" why would you buy these for a pedestal mount head?
FR windage tray Jegs: For front sump motors- requires modification for rear sump vehicles.Ford Racing M-6687-A302 Ford Racing Windage Trays.
The mounting kit:Milodon 81157 Milodon Windage Trays. (at least this is the only one I pull up) Milodon I don't know if these will work with a FR tray. Why not recommend a Milodon #32212 which fits and is $3 cheaper.Milodon 32212 Milodon Windage Trays.
My only problem is your attitude. That $50 part has to be shipped and requires a mounting kit to install that also has to be shipped, so you're looking at closer to a hundred, and I don't have that to spare.
I go to church every Sunday, and pray for Know-it all smart-azzez like you.
#49
10-05-2009, 04:46 PM
What are you arguing about now??? Is this a post on why one needs a windage tray? The first time I mentioned a windage tray was this sentence:
" If you want the best you can replace the main cap bolts with studs and put a girdle and windage tray on it."
Please notice I said "if you want the best."
The next time I mentioned a windage tray I said:
"Something that I found interesting was a report that a windage tray gained 40hp. I guess it takes a lot of power to slog the crank through the oil. So adding that to your motor is a quick way to pick up HP. " I didn't say you will always get 40hp but you get some if not a lot and maybe it will be 40hp. And it's only a fifty dollar part. Guys put new intakes on that cost hundreds to get 20hp. I think a fifty dollar part that can get 10 hp more is a good deal and with this you might get 40hp, others have.
You got a real problem bud. You might consider professional help about this. If this post upset you to this level your life is not in order. You might even need medication. You are going off like this over a fifty dollar part????? You first started out saying that they are not worth it and now you say "If you can afford one, great, they are worthwhile additions to ANY motor." They're only fifty bucks!! Who can't afford fifty bucks when they are building a high performance motor??? Something is wrong with you!! You should try going to church or something. You're not right in the head.
" If you want the best you can replace the main cap bolts with studs and put a girdle and windage tray on it."
Please notice I said "if you want the best."
The next time I mentioned a windage tray I said:
"Something that I found interesting was a report that a windage tray gained 40hp. I guess it takes a lot of power to slog the crank through the oil. So adding that to your motor is a quick way to pick up HP. " I didn't say you will always get 40hp but you get some if not a lot and maybe it will be 40hp. And it's only a fifty dollar part. Guys put new intakes on that cost hundreds to get 20hp. I think a fifty dollar part that can get 10 hp more is a good deal and with this you might get 40hp, others have.
You got a real problem bud. You might consider professional help about this. If this post upset you to this level your life is not in order. You might even need medication. You are going off like this over a fifty dollar part????? You first started out saying that they are not worth it and now you say "If you can afford one, great, they are worthwhile additions to ANY motor." They're only fifty bucks!! Who can't afford fifty bucks when they are building a high performance motor??? Something is wrong with you!! You should try going to church or something. You're not right in the head.
In the same vein- you are saying put new bearings in after quoting how Mark Donahue ran a worn out lower end. Talk about a contradiction. But I let that go, because the OP wasn't buying it.
So in post #39 you go on a rambling paragraph full of misinformation trying to bolster you misperceptions with lame analogies. Remember "It's not a mist!!!" Three exclamation points to point out your own ignorance.
Then you add "My advice is pull the motor. Put new rod and main bearings in it. Add a windage tray and a new timing chain." I think we all got that already. By now we all know what your OPINION is.
So in post #40, I address the misinformation in this post.
Then post #44- "I am willing to bet you have never driver a vehicle that had a windage tray in it and compared it to one that did not." Give me a break. Like you have. "I was going to write a longer responce but I don't think it's worth it. You are going to have your opinion based on what you believe to be correct. I'll base mine on what I know to be correct. So lets just agree to disagree." This whole post was snide comments insinuating that you were right and I was wrong. It was like saying "let me kick you in the groin 3 times and then let's quit fighting. Sounds like your the one who is getting bent out of shape at this point.
I would have let it go if you had just said- "let's just agree to disagree."
So my next post was not really so much about the windage tray as it is was my challenge to you to prove that you weren't spreading incorrect information and I was wrong.
And your response to that was not to back up your contentions, but to personally attack me. Like I said- Do some research.
#50
10-06-2009, 03:05 PM
You are a real sicko. Two posts back to back giving me ****? You have a problem. And now you are searching the forum to find posts I made so you can give me **** on them also???? You got a real problem. You are a NUT bud. You have serious mental problems. You need medication. Go to a doctor before you go off like this in the real world and get yourself. or much worse, someone else really hurt if not killed. I'm not joking you got real psychological problems.
Anybody that takes the advice of someone that is obviously so mentally ill is not all that bright either. All you are doing with these outbursts is showing how truly sick you are. You should probably stop now because I am going to bookmark these and if you ever give me **** again I will use them to show what a mental case you are.
Anybody that takes the advice of someone that is obviously so mentally ill is not all that bright either. All you are doing with these outbursts is showing how truly sick you are. You should probably stop now because I am going to bookmark these and if you ever give me **** again I will use them to show what a mental case you are.
#51
10-06-2009, 03:56 PM
#52
10-08-2009, 01:45 PM
I think the real reason is you have no life. This forum is everything you have. I am new so you want to slap me around so you feel powerful. Well guess what you have no power. I know what I know and I know you live in fantasy land. That's why you made such a point about your mission to control the information that is put on the forum. This is your world, or at least you think it is. It's all you have so you try to control it because you can't control the real world. You've been on here for two years!!! Man you really need help fast. You have no real friends. People on here are not your friends. They might say they are so you don't go off on them but how many times have they invited you to their homes? And if they did how many times did they invite you back after meeting you? This is a clue bud. You got to work on getting a life. That's why I said go to church. You'll meet others that are more accepting of the mentally damaged. They will try to help you. ( I'm actually trying to help you here )
And by the way you should read what you wrote. You are the one that's ranting.
Just go away.
#53
10-08-2009, 03:11 PM
I already told you I go to Church every Sunday. But man, you are so right, outside of family and friends, Church, hunting and fishing, buying cars, fixing them up and selling them for a profit, doing mechanic work on the side, gardening,playing lead guitar in a rock band,doing high-end carpentry for a living, building a motor and restoring my old pick-up, and being an ardent Dallas Cowboys and Dallas Stars fan, this forum is all I've got. I'm sure all the sicko's that have been here for 2 or more years are just as lost as me.
You are a funny guy.... keep it coming!
You are a funny guy.... keep it coming!
#54
10-12-2009, 10:02 PM
I already told you I go to Church every Sunday. But man, you are so right, outside of family and friends, Church, hunting and fishing, buying cars, fixing them up and selling them for a profit, doing mechanic work on the side, gardening,playing lead guitar in a rock band,doing high-end carpentry for a living, building a motor and restoring my old pick-up, and being an ardent Dallas Cowboys and Dallas Stars fan, this forum is all I've got. I'm sure all the sicko's that have been here for 2 or more years are just as lost as me.
You are a funny guy.... keep it coming!
You are a funny guy.... keep it coming!
I strongly suspect you are lying. I can tell this because you said that you buy cars, fix them up and sell them for a profit. How much do you make? Ten cents? The way to make money on cars is to just buy, clean, and sell.
But with that all said you are still a jerk. I doubt that what you say is true, except that part about being from Texas. That makes things pefectly clear.
So you realy just pound nails and drink your *** off right!
I didn't say others here are sickos. Again you can't read what I wrote properly, You are the only sicko I've seen here. The fact that you just have to keep posting about this shows I'm right about you. You're a nut. Did you graduate from highschool? And you know what the guy in the movie said about Texas, steers and (Well you get the point). You are just a jerk. You didn't read what I wrote you interpreted what I wrote. and you interpreted what I wrote poorly.
Want to prove me wrong? Don't post anymore to this thread. I know that it will just drive you nutts not replying. If you do reply then it proves that you are a jerk and can't control yourself.
"High end carpentry"? What a joke you live in fantasy land
#55
10-13-2009, 01:19 PM
I strongly suspect you are lying. I can tell this because you said that you buy cars, fix them up and sell them for a profit. How much do you make? Ten cents? The way to make money on cars is to just buy, clean, and sell.
But with that all said you are still a jerk. I doubt that what you say is true, except that part about being from Texas. That makes things pefectly clear.
So you realy just pound nails and drink your *** off right!
I didn't say others here are sickos. Again you can't read what I wrote properly, You are the only sicko I've seen here. The fact that you just have to keep posting about this shows I'm right about you. You're a nut. Did you graduate from highschool? And you know what the guy in the movie said about Texas, steers and (Well you get the point). You are just a jerk. You didn't read what I wrote you interpreted what I wrote. and you interpreted what I wrote poorly.
Want to prove me wrong? Don't post anymore to this thread. I know that it will just drive you nutts not replying. If you do reply then it proves that you are a jerk and can't control yourself.
"High end carpentry"? What a joke you live in fantasy land
But with that all said you are still a jerk. I doubt that what you say is true, except that part about being from Texas. That makes things pefectly clear.
So you realy just pound nails and drink your *** off right!
I didn't say others here are sickos. Again you can't read what I wrote properly, You are the only sicko I've seen here. The fact that you just have to keep posting about this shows I'm right about you. You're a nut. Did you graduate from highschool? And you know what the guy in the movie said about Texas, steers and (Well you get the point). You are just a jerk. You didn't read what I wrote you interpreted what I wrote. and you interpreted what I wrote poorly.
Want to prove me wrong? Don't post anymore to this thread. I know that it will just drive you nutts not replying. If you do reply then it proves that you are a jerk and can't control yourself.
"High end carpentry"? What a joke you live in fantasy land
You're going to dis Texas, beer, and carpenters on a truck forum?...........For everything else, there's Mastercard
You should have replaced Leno.... You're a funny guy.
Let's see... I bought this 2002 Escort for $600 with a bad motor. The #4 intake valve had snapped off at the head and all that was left was a bent connecting rod and a hole in the side of that cylinder. I'd heard that the only motor you could use for those cars was the 2000 up, but I found a 97 core for $100, and it looked so much the same, I just had to buy it.
The differences turned out to be a different oil sending unit location, shorter valve cover on the 97, the top piston ring was narrower on the 2002, the 97 had a windage tray and the 2002 didn't, and the 2002 had a boss at the top of the block for an anti-knock sensor.
The 97 had lost #4 intake valve seat, (what 90% of these motors do when they fail) and the # 4 piston had cracked right along the ring land basically letting the top of the piston flop up and down. Amazingly, all the cylinder bores were in good shape, so I got a gasket set, piston rings, bearings, a used rebuilt head and 97 piston and rod off Ebay. Unfortunately, when I inspected the new head I found the #4 intake seat was cracked. So I had to have a valve job done on it. The onlt other issue was the anti-knock sensoer, which I solved by drilling and tapping the block.
All that said, I put about $900 more into it. I think I can get more than $1500.10....
Pound nails? I use glue and clamps, dowels and fasteners like pocket screws much more than I do nails. Here's a stair I recently built:
And the house it went in:
Here's a bar I paneled to match the kitchen cabinets, the blue tape on the bottom is helping hold the panel in place while the liquid nails dries as I put this up without any nails:
Now I'm going back to bed. I wouldn't even be on this computer if it wasn't raining and I didn't have the flu. I got a flu shot, so I probably have the H1N1 and it's kicking my butt.
#56
10-13-2009, 10:21 PM
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That's impressive woodworking, Doug. But, I am not sure why you took the time to post the pics and supply an explanation to prove yourself to Big Joe. Both of you guys have invested way too much time into what has become such a stupid, worthless, and futile argument.
Conclusion: Windage trays are beneficial pieces of equipment for superior lubrication. They will never yield 40 hp on a lightly modified 302 truck engine, but that is not to say they're not beneficial. Whether or not they are worth it for a 302 truck engine is a matter of opinion. You both need to agree to disagree there.
And for the love of God stop the petty, foolish, childish arguing.
Conclusion: Windage trays are beneficial pieces of equipment for superior lubrication. They will never yield 40 hp on a lightly modified 302 truck engine, but that is not to say they're not beneficial. Whether or not they are worth it for a 302 truck engine is a matter of opinion. You both need to agree to disagree there.
And for the love of God stop the petty, foolish, childish arguing.
#57
10-14-2009, 01:03 PM
. I just felt like showing off a little. I haven't taken this seriously in a long time now. I found Big Joes posts entertaining and I haven't had this much fun agitating since I had a CB.
#59
10-14-2009, 07:16 PM
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#60
10-18-2009, 12:55 PM