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  #1  
Old 08-31-2009, 04:08 PM
cabinman cabinman is offline
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'04 6.0 - Crankshaft Pos. sensor and Camshaft Pos.sensor

As some of you know, I have an inoperable truck at the moment. I am not getting a sync in the FICM and nothing from the Crank/cam sync either. So I suspect wire chaffing because apparently those two parts don't commonly go wrong on the 6.0..

If my autoenginuity scanner can see RPM - is that coming from the Crank sensor or Cam sensor ? I assume the crank sensor would do that.
I am trying to figure out how to test both of those sensors for operation before just replacing them. I hear a few people say they showed no code but the sensor was the fix. In the end I am not getting a sync so I suspect it's one of these two sensors or the unit they interface with.

Also, how the heck is everyone doing a thorough job checking for chaffing when the wire that runs to my crank sensor runs through the back of my idler pulley tensioner and then behind my AC compressor and is thus not removable for inspection without a huge pile of work. Even the cam sensor wire is nearly impossible to see let alone inspect without yet again removing half the front of the engine. Am I missing something here or are people disassembling theirs trucks to do these inspections properly. What's the trick ? I can't believe they actually assemble an engine around a harness, that seems just retarded to me. Perhaps that is, among other reasons, why our North American vehicles suck so bad. Someone from engineering needs to get down to assembly and have a look for a change. Common sense certainly isn't so common anymore.

At the moment, I am seriously frustrated with this pile of crap.
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Old 08-31-2009, 05:00 PM
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I guess then you run out of time and patients you can have it towed to a Ford dealer which will get you back on the road again.
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Old 08-31-2009, 05:16 PM
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The cam sensor wire can be unplugged from underneath and pulled out the top by the dipstick and all you have to take out is the air cleaner. If you're getting RPM's the crank sensor is working. These sensors are basically bulletproof. I know of only 2 that have actually gone bad. I know you are frustrated with your truck. Everything is a LOT simpler than it looks if you take it one piece at a time like a puzzle. Take the air cleaner out and go from there. Take pictures if you have a digital camera. Take the battery cables off and take the drivers side battery out. MOST of the harness is in this area and branches to the sensors over the top of the motor. Go to the tech folder and study the pictures before you proceed further. Study all sides of the motor views and you'll see where everything is located. It's harder to unclip some of the connections than it is to get the wires out. Again--TAKE YOUR TIME.
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Old 08-31-2009, 05:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cabinman View Post
As some of you know, I have an inoperable truck at the moment. I am not getting a sync in the FICM and nothing from the Crank/cam sync either. So I suspect wire chaffing because apparently those two parts don't commonly go wrong on the 6.0..

If my autoenginuity scanner can see RPM - is that coming from the Crank sensor or Cam sensor ? I assume the crank sensor would do that.
I am trying to figure out how to test both of those sensors for operation before just replacing them. I hear a few people say they showed no code but the sensor was the fix. In the end I am not getting a sync so I suspect it's one of these two sensors or the unit they interface with.

Also, how the heck is everyone doing a thorough job checking for chaffing when the wire that runs to my crank sensor runs through the back of my idler pulley tensioner and then behind my AC compressor and is thus not removable for inspection without a huge pile of work. Even the cam sensor wire is nearly impossible to see let alone inspect without yet again removing half the front of the engine. Am I missing something here or are people disassembling theirs trucks to do these inspections properly. What's the trick ? I can't believe they actually assemble an engine around a harness, that seems just retarded to me. Perhaps that is, among other reasons, why our North American vehicles suck so bad. Someone from engineering needs to get down to assembly and have a look for a change. Common sense certainly isn't so common anymore.

At the moment, I am seriously frustrated with this pile of crap.



Obviously you haven't tried chasing down the wiring harnesses on any of the foreign jobs that have more options than a cigarette lighter. Maybe you should trade it in for a Tundra??
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Old 08-31-2009, 05:53 PM
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RE - getting a dealer to repair it.. my LAST resort, I assure you.

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I guess then you run out of time and patients you can have it towed to a Ford dealer which will get you back on the road again.
Wow.. helpful, but they already did work on this truck and judging by some of that work it's about as good as your spelling and grammar. For those of you who don't already know this, let me help you understand how helpful the Ford motor corporations is.

When they find a fault that you haven't complained about and that isn't causing the issue , they ( the dealerships and mechanics ) are told by FORD to ignore it because they see that as SEEKING problems and extra work, a violation of their "agreement". Case in point where my truck had to go in for heads. The passenger side manifold had an exhaust leak. So I assumed than any mechanic worth his title would see that and fix it because it's not right. I get it back and notice no bolts have been undone and wondered how they did heads without removing the manifolds.. Well they can and they do fix heads without taking them apart and they skipped right past the leaking manifold gasket. So I return it to them and tell them to fix it right. They return it to me and again after getting it home, I check under the hood, still haven't replaced the gasket. Apparently, it's within spec and doesn't need replacing !! ok, either a gasket leaks or it doesn't, end of. This is not found on a crank with some weepage acceptable. So in the end they finally explain that Ford is rejecting over $100,000 of legit claims a MONTH and they are eating it and if they didn't like it, Ford would just pull their dealership repair rights .. Nice eh.. so then they could sell but not fix, which means the dealership is essentially closed. This isn't an isolated case, I have documented this in 3 dealerships now.. That means that Ford is not only not fixing legitimate problems but is also forcing the dealers and the mechanics to do half **** work. That's wrong, it's criminal and it's going on totally unchecked. I know many people who have had issues with their trucks; On going problems that are not due to lack of maintenance or abuse and they are getting screwed. So in closing, I no longer blame the mechanics, I understand they're are doing what they must to keep their job, some even stretch things to help a client out but FORD is not doing what they should and neither are the dealerships. When it's broken or not right and it's under warranty and it's not a wear item, it should be repaired. You as a consumer shouldn't have to be a mechanic to be able to find things to get them to do what's right. So bringing it to a dealership isn't necessarily at the TOP of my list. I don't want to support a system that screws the very customers that pay the bills. I don't do it in my own personal company and I don't agree with it from a larger corporation either. When you pay $65,000 -$80,000 for a truck ( in Canada ), you deserve to get a decent product with a decent warranty that works for you.
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Old 08-31-2009, 08:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cabinman View Post
Wow.. helpful, but they already did work on this truck and judging by some of that work it's about as good as your spelling and grammar. For those of you who don't already know this, let me help you understand how helpful the Ford motor corporations is.

When they find a fault that you haven't complained about and that isn't causing the issue , they ( the dealerships and mechanics ) are told by FORD to ignore it because they see that as SEEKING problems and extra work, a violation of their "agreement". Case in point where my truck had to go in for heads. The passenger side manifold had an exhaust leak. So I assumed than any mechanic worth his title would see that and fix it because it's not right. I get it back and notice no bolts have been undone and wondered how they did heads without removing the manifolds.. Well they can and they do fix heads without taking them apart and they skipped right past the leaking manifold gasket. So I return it to them and tell them to fix it right. They return it to me and again after getting it home, I check under the hood, still haven't replaced the gasket. Apparently, it's within spec and doesn't need replacing !! ok, either a gasket leaks or it doesn't, end of. This is not found on a crank with some weepage acceptable. So in the end they finally explain that Ford is rejecting over $100,000 of legit claims a MONTH and they are eating it and if they didn't like it, Ford would just pull their dealership repair rights .. Nice eh.. so then they could sell but not fix, which means the dealership is essentially closed. This isn't an isolated case, I have documented this in 3 dealerships now.. That means that Ford is not only not fixing legitimate problems but is also forcing the dealers and the mechanics to do half **** work. That's wrong, it's criminal and it's going on totally unchecked. I know many people who have had issues with their trucks; On going problems that are not due to lack of maintenance or abuse and they are getting screwed. So in closing, I no longer blame the mechanics, I understand they're are doing what they must to keep their job, some even stretch things to help a client out but FORD is not doing what they should and neither are the dealerships. When it's broken or not right and it's under warranty and it's not a wear item, it should be repaired. You as a consumer shouldn't have to be a mechanic to be able to find things to get them to do what's right. So bringing it to a dealership isn't necessarily at the TOP of my list. I don't want to support a system that screws the very customers that pay the bills. I don't do it in my own personal company and I don't agree with it from a larger corporation either. When you pay $65,000 -$80,000 for a truck ( in Canada ), you deserve to get a decent product with a decent warranty that works for you.





Sounds like you live in the wrong area for truck repair. I never heard of anything like you claim, but with your attitude I can see why you have dealer problems. If you think your getting screwed, get a lawyer and sue them.
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Old 08-31-2009, 10:05 PM
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Cabinman, cam and crank sensors can go bad. Chances are if you are getting a rpm signal then the crank is ok. A cam sensor is only about $30 if you just want to pop one in. Otherwise you can check the red and orange wires at the PCM center connector. Using a multimeter that reads hertz check across both wires while cranking, you should see around 1.3 Hz. If You are within a couple of tenths of that reading then you are ok. However, I thought in your other post that the code was related to icp sensor and/or pressure. Does your scanner read the pressure when cranking? What are you getting? PCM needs FICM Sync, Sync, ICP reading 500 psi or greater.

As for your story, all 6.0's do not come with exhaust manifold gaskets, the manifold has to have a serious crack in it to cause any kind of power issue or noise. Headgaskets can be removed and replaced without removing the manifolds or disassembling the heads. The only time I have ever installed exhaust gaskets were for exhaust smells in the cabin and those are few and far between and again they were not causing a drivability issue. Ford has no issue with ever paying a warranty claim provided the mechanic followed correct procedures in accordance with Ford warranty guidelines.
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Old 09-01-2009, 12:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jboczar View Post
Cabinman, cam and crank sensors can go bad. Chances are if you are getting a rpm signal then the crank is ok. A cam sensor is only about $30 if you just want to pop one in. Otherwise you can check the red and orange wires at the PCM center connector. Using a multimeter that reads hertz check across both wires while cranking, you should see around 1.3 Hz. If You are within a couple of tenths of that reading then you are ok. However, I thought in your other post that the code was related to icp sensor and/or pressure. Does your scanner read the pressure when cranking? What are you getting? PCM needs FICM Sync, Sync, ICP reading 500 psi or greater.

As for your story, all 6.0's do not come with exhaust manifold gaskets, the manifold has to have a serious crack in it to cause any kind of power issue or noise. Headgaskets can be removed and replaced without removing the manifolds or disassembling the heads. The only time I have ever installed exhaust gaskets were for exhaust smells in the cabin and those are few and far between and again they were not causing a drivability issue. Ford has no issue with ever paying a warranty claim provided the mechanic followed correct procedures in accordance with Ford warranty guidelines.

Hi, yeah I bought a cam sensor today to try it out. You are correct about one of my posts being related to a P2285 ICP sensor code but I don't know why it came up as it doesn't show up anymore, maybe from the new ( used ) FICM ? I don't think it has memory though, so I am not sure about that. The AE reader doesn't show that code anymore and I did post all the specs that it came up with. The ICP came up at 1.26volts 966 PSI at around 150 rpm. Since I have several posts going, I posted the results of that scan in detail in another post and it doesn't show the sync I need for it to start. That seems to be my issue right now. Still working my way through the harness as well to make 100% sure that's not it.

With regards to the exhaust manifold leaking story, it's not a story by the way, the reason I knew of it was because not only could I hear it clearly but you could smell it, that's why I complained about it and it was actually not cracked. Whether or not all 6.0's come with exhaust manifold gaskets is something I don't know for sure, although why some would, and some wouldn't doesn't make sense to me either, not that I don't believe you. Usually if it's not there they saved money and it works and if they change it, it's for a reason. Just like having extra bolts at the end of a job means you likely did something wrong. Typically they don't do anything for no reason due to costs. I have never seen a vehicle without gaskets between the manifold and the head but I have seen a machined surface to surface seal on my old 6.5L chev between the turbo and the exhaust but that's another story. What I am CERTAIN about is that Ford was not wanting to cover legit claims, it's not a matter of opinion. It would not make sense for a dealer to turn me away for work they could legitimately claim under warranty, that's completely obvious, they try to keep the shops full, not empty. The only reason they finally gave in was because I told them if they felt it was not an issue, I would run it to my local Department of Transport Inspection facility and have it inspected. As a professional driver we have books that specifically tell us to look for issues like this on our pre-trip. He agreed it would immediately fail, which it would, and that was the end of it, they then agreed to fix it. That's the truth as it happened to me. I have yet to see someone who knows what a car sounds like agree that a leaky hissing manifold that is both loud and annoying isn't anything to worry about. I certainly don't like the sound of it wrapping away as I drive away but I guess some people maybe don't mind. On a $65,000 truck, I expect a little more, on an old Chevy Vega, maybe not. Debatable I suppose.

PS.. For interest sake, apparently there are some differences among the dealers in Canada and the US. Every part I have seen priced out in the US is nearly half the price in the US, so nobody should expect that what's one way there is the same here ( exchange factored in ). The Cam sensor here is $58.00. ICP $220.00 Crank $80.00( ish ) I only wish I could buy every part there !

I also forgot to mention why I was suprised they could do a head without removing the manifolds. They told me when they were going to re do my engine due to the head warping issue that they would do the valves too. I don't do heads for a living but in the old days, when I did a head, we removed everything, planed them true and then re assembled ,doing a valve grind or lap, whatever was necessary and in the budget. That is why I thought it was odd they didn't remove the manifolds. Logic tells me, again unless I am wrong, they didn't do what they said they would and they did not in fact machine the heads and do the valves. Gotta remember, I am only telling you what they told me at the time, which isn't what actually got done from my estimation.
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Old 09-01-2009, 12:20 AM
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Just an observation ..... I see some folks offering great help and then I see very few words of appreciation. Something to think about.
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Old 09-01-2009, 05:58 AM
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The 6.0's don't normally come from the factory with exhaust manifold gaskets and it's very easy to surface plane these heads with the exhaust manifolds still on them and valves still in them. Typically the valves don't need any kind of maintenance in a diesel head at the "low" mileage they are machined at, so they don't remove them. Just isn't any point. They are designed to run 250K plus miles.

$58 for a CMPS is pretty cheap. The dealership here in FT. Smith quoted me $68. I'll never buy parts from them unless it's a life and death emergency. I can rent a car for the difference in their prices and have the parts shipped to my house from Ed.
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Old 09-01-2009, 11:05 AM
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Hi Bismic.. actually if you read my posts I am very thankful for those people who took the time to help,except that one guy who didn't help at all. That includes when you have taken the time to write, I do appreciate that. Just because I share my experience or what I have read and it doesn't match others suggestions doesn't mean at all I am not thankful. In those cases I am trying to find out the correct information. I have for instance read in some posts you need 175-200 rpm to make the truck fire, 11 volts at the FICM, when you read the Ford Bible and another Ford diagnostic sheet that both say 100 rpm and 8 volts. Again not saying that's good but those are the minimums and when you are trying your best to get this thing running, I need to be clear on what the minimums are. They do say low RPM will extend crank times. Anyway, that's my only point.
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Old 09-01-2009, 11:08 AM
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Makes you mad sometimes seeing the same part for double doesn't it. I could see if it was a different brand but really, how does that happen. Ford FICM unprogrammed here is $900, international $480.. nice spread when you consider International isn't giving them away either !
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Old 09-01-2009, 11:12 AM
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Point taken, either way, for the guy doing the searching, it sucks to have those harnesses buried behind parts that have to be removed to inspect. But I bet my truck has had more problems than the average Tundra. LOL
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Old 09-01-2009, 11:24 AM
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chasing the wires down

Quote:
Originally Posted by npccpartsman View Post
The cam sensor wire can be unplugged from underneath and pulled out the top by the dipstick and all you have to take out is the air cleaner. If you're getting RPM's the crank sensor is working. These sensors are basically bulletproof. I know of only 2 that have actually gone bad. I know you are frustrated with your truck. Everything is a LOT simpler than it looks if you take it one piece at a time like a puzzle. Take the air cleaner out and go from there. Take pictures if you have a digital camera. Take the battery cables off and take the drivers side battery out. MOST of the harness is in this area and branches to the sensors over the top of the motor. Go to the tech folder and study the pictures before you proceed further. Study all sides of the motor views and you'll see where everything is located. It's harder to unclip some of the connections than it is to get the wires out. Again--TAKE YOUR TIME.
Hi, again, I was able to inspect most of the harness alright. The three spots I found were incredibly difficult is the crank sensor because the plugs are too big to pull through behind the tensioner. The hole barely fits the wire so I have to pull the tensioner to get the wire out to have a good look. What's the easiest way to do that ? It looks like you have to pull the fan, shroud and then the tensioner because there's not enough room to get in there to remove the tensioner bolts without removing the other stuff. The wire looks ok but it is through a small hole with sharp edges so I hate to just skip that one as it looks like the worst spot out of all the places I have looked. Just so you know, I did study everything I could find but I couldn't find anywhere how people got this darn wire out to inspect. The ICP regulator and the camshaft wires were also difficult but no impossible as you suggested. Fun stuff to do when you have two freshly broken ribs !!! Thanks for taking the time to write, I know all the members don't get paid to do it, so for those who are "Down" and far from a dealer, it's really great to have the help.
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Old 09-01-2009, 02:34 PM
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Another suggestion is that you might take an ohm meter and check each of the wires for continuity. That requires being able to get only to each end, but it can help. I don't think your crank PS or wire is bad as you're getting an RPM signal, right? Pulling that tensioner might be an absolute bitch.

Broken ribs??? OMG. I wouldn't even want to attempt it. I had severely bruised ribs so I know how painful it is to attempt what you're doing.
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Old 09-01-2009, 02:34 PM
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