I have a '64 F250 4x4 with a 312 block and, I believe all other motor components are from the original 292. I've been looking for a Cleveland to install but the more I read about Y's the more I'd like to keep it and rebuild it with some upgrades.
I need low end torque since I'll be mostly playing in the mud with this truck, currently with 35" tires and factory T-98 and 4.88 axles.
Is the 312 a good choice my needs? Bored out a bit might make it better? or should I stick with plan A, the cleveland?
I found a pair of ecz-g heads, will they fit on my ecz-c block?
What is a posted head?
How available are intakes for the ecz-g? Can I use 2 bbl, 4 bbl or dual 4's with ecz-g heads?
Any advice would be really helpful since this is a new venture for me.
Given that the ECZ-G heads are the smallest in chamber volume, they will boost your compression -- something that does help torque.
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How available are intakes for the ecz-g? Can I use 2 bbl, 4 bbl or dual 4's with ecz-g heads?
In a word, "yes." With your combination, I would consider the "B" 4v manifold and a small Holley 4v between 390 and 600 cfm, or a similar Carter/Edelbrock AFB, if they float your boat.
On the other hand, if you use the truck a lot, you might want to consider a 2v manifold and run an Autolite 2100 -- the large ones should work quite well -- or a 2300 Holley, which would also work quite well and are available up to 500 cfm -- actually the same size/flow as the 390 cfm 4v, but simpler.
If you are running a 312, you might consider .030" to be as far as you want to push the boring.
The posted head was a factory modification that resulted from supercharged 312s having some combustion chamber cracking issues. The "post" was a cast reinforcement in the head to counteract that tendency. For what you want to do, I wouldn't get too worried about needing this.
There's nothing wrong with a Cleveland -- after all, it is a Ford engine. But if you are looking for a torque motor, wouldn't you want to be thinking of the 2v head version? And while you are at it, maybe a 400M?
Such a swap is going to alter your vehicle's character totally, I would think. Not that there would be anything wrong with it, of course, but I think what you are dealing with is a decision on the character of your ride. Y Block or Cleveland, each have attributes that you could use to create the truck that says "you." The Y Block is unique and has a lot of soul. The Cleveland is more modern and can lay down some good torque, especially in the 400M version. But really, you're the only one who can answer that.
The casting on the block is ECZ 6015 C, 1957 312 with 292 EBU mains, based on this: http://www.ford-y-block.com/Block%20identification.htm
I'm not exactly sure what that means, I assumed the crank is a 292 (hopefully forged) and the bore is 312.
As far as which motor to use, I can get a complete 351C 2V with manual flywheel if I'm willing to drive to get it. I prefer the 2V and have access to a pair of Q code heads which would be cool. THEN, all I have to do is modify the motor mounts in the truck and find a bellhousing.
I recently discovered a 400c manual at a greater cost, less driving.
I like to be unique which takes back to the 312 rebuild. I see the 312 as a classic with history and deserving of a respectable rebuild. Also, no mounts to mess with. But I'm under the impression that rebuilding this motor is more expensive. Is that a false impression.
Can I assume that the 292 heads are open chambered? Then with boring to .030, I could use domed pistons to increase compression?
With the granny 1st gear and 4.88 axles, I could probably run a 4 cylinder in it, but my 16 yr old son would be very dissapointed in me if I did anything less than a V8.
THat's an interesting idea though, I would then consider a 4 cyl Mitsubishi deisel. Yeah, I know, that just sounds wrong but think of torque and the mpg's.
What that means is if the main caps are EBU, then more likely than not, it is a 292. I the main caps are ECZ, then more likely than not, it is a 312. Either way, it doesn't matter much both will produce good amounts of torque.
To build a Y-block tends to cost a lot more than a similar displacement small block. A basic rebuild should not cost much more. Machine work should not cost any more. The expensive item is the cam and lifters. You can install domed pistons if you wish but I really wouldn't get too fancy with it. The 292 that could have come in my 61 was rated at 270ft/lbs, if I remember right. That is a low compression motor. With the G-heads, a slight cam upgrade, dual exhaust and an iron 4v manifold, you should be able to get it into the mid 300ft/lb area quite easily.
I have heard from several builders who specialize in Y's that the later heads, while low on compression, and small on the intake valves, are excellent for producing torque. You may want to research that.
Y-blocks are close chambered. - It will be worthwhile to get the piston to head clearance right to maximize compression and reduce the tendency to knock.
Can I assume that the 292 heads are open chambered?
Charlie replied:
Quote:
Y-blocks are close chambered. - It will be worthwhile to get the piston to head clearance right to maximize compression and reduce the tendency to knock.
You should remember that Clevelands were notorious knockers in their day, when all of that kludge-style emissions stuff was added. When they opened the chambers on engines to eliminate the quench areas, that's when cars started knocking and Detroit gave them very lazy advance curves -- all of which led to some very soggy performance.
The Y Block -- all of them -- had very substantial quench areas in an effort to take advantage of the very well known (by then) principles of Sir Harry Ricardo and his research on high compression, high turbulence heads in the 20s.
Now, with properly designed pent roof 4 valve heads, only small amounts of quench are necessary to get the needed amount of turbulence. This avoids the emissions-associated problems with large quench areas.
For your purpose, however, as Charlie said: Get the deck height down so your pistons are within .040 - .050 of the head (approach zero deck with composition gaskets) and you'll have no problems. ECZ-G heads will get you right to where you want to be with regular gas, so you can avoid expensive custom pistons.
"Open chamber" heads were synonymous with good flow rate figures back in "the day." Some of the old hot rod techniques had a real benefit, and others were based on what was known at the time. Thankfully, our knowledge has increased, as the mania for good flow in the 60s began to give way to an understanding that performance not only required flow, but efficient combustion.
Remember that the hottest heads for many engines, including the Cleveland, were not open chamber heads. You would be looking for the 70-71 4v heads or the 71 Boss 351 heads for max performance here, not the open chamber heads, and all 2v heads on Clevelands are open chamber.
The quench is what helps low and mid range torque and whatever engine you select, quench is something to be desired, not avoided, whether you are seeking economy or power.
I ran a 57 312 in my 58 F100 complete with the Borg-Warner 3 speed overdrive transmission. I started with a small AFB from a Buick 300ci engine due to the poor breathing characteristics of the Y-block (if you doubt it, put the heads on with no pistons and look up the bores). The carburetor either had a porus casting or hidden crack as it would leak down the passenger side bowl into the intake. I put an early VV (non-feedback) on it on the stock 2V intake from a 292. Got as high as 26mpg with the 3:70 gear in it, gobs of torque! There is a cooling system improvement that involves drilling 2 small holes in the deck and heads between the center cylinders. If you use the 57 rocker arms, they are higher ratio than all the others, giving you a little more lift and very slightly more duration. I was asked at the time "why a 312, why not use a 351?" I told people "more low end torque". Be carefull with rocker oiling, it is the weak spot on these engines.
__________________
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1985 LeBaron convertible 2.2L TurboII
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1986 Turismo 2.2 (race car)
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1989 LeBaron J body coupe
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Stock for stock, when you compare the flow of a Y-block head to a head for a similar displacement small block, be it Ford, Mopar, or Chevy, the Y is in the ball park, and some times has a slight edge. They can be made to breathe very well with the valves and chamber in the same position, relative to the cylinder.
The cooling mod has been discussed in great detail over on Y-Blocksforever. For that one, I'll just say to research it and decide for yourself if it is something you want to do. With modern oils, rocker oiling is no longer a problem. Just make sure that the groove in the cam is deep enough. The groove in some aftermarket cams is not.
The big handicap for the Y is the lack of both aftermarket parts and 40 years of development.
Stock for stock, when you compare the flow of a Y-block head to a head for a similar displacement small block, be it Ford, Mopar, or Chevy, the Y is in the ball park, and some times has a slight edge. They can be made to breathe very well with the valves and chamber in the same position, relative to the cylinder.
The data is here: have a look for yourself. This data is for most common iron V8s.
That old myth of Y blocks not breathing is something that, with all of our scientific advances, needs to be put to rest. Air/fuel doesn't always flow in the way that the eye indicates it should, or there would be no purpose for building flow benches.
That old myth of Y blocks not breathing is something that, with all of our scientific advances, needs to be put to rest.
Got that right! If any of you want to see what these "poor breathing" motors can do, get to National Trail Raceway on Labor Day Weekend. I don't think a poor breathing motor would make an 8.15 second, at 160-something mph pass - and that was not at full throttle! They breathe well enough to be competitive at Bonneville!
Thanks for all the input, this stuff is far over my head, your advice is really appreciated.
As I start my build this winter, I'll be looking forward to more great information from you guys, THanks again.
I have picked up the ECZ-G heads with all the original components. THey all appear to be in good shape but I lack the knowledge to really make an intelligent determination on these. THey have been magnafluxed and I was told they are ready for rebuilding. IF all components are good, should I use them or are there other performance upgrades I should consider? As usual, money is an issue, I'd like more power without breaking the bank.
Also, I purchased an intake manifold ECZ-9425-B, I have not received it yet, but I am wondering about the difference from others. Mine appears to have a totally flat surface where the carb meets the intake. Others I've seen have a continuous ridge at the perimeter of the carb base and a ridge around the intake ports, the surface otherwise is recessed. Are these different years or are there performance differences or . . . ?
How can I find an experienced 312 shop to do some work for me?
I live just north of Mpls/St. Paul, maybe you have some contacts to get me going?
How can I find an experienced 312 shop to do some work for me?
THanks.
Call and ask. From a machining standpoint, about the only thing a local shop may not have is a torque plate. Everything else is done the same. While a torque plate can help, I believe the location of the head bolt bosses on a Y result in less warping of the cylinder and therefore is not as big a deal as it is with other engines. I do not believe it would have been machined with one originally, anyway - and they lasted quite a while that way. You don't need an experienced shop; you need a shop willing to take the time to make sure it is done right.
RE the manifolds, I'm not sure. Some trucks came with 4bbl manifolds. Whether it is the same casting as the 57 B manifold, I do not know. The B intake you have on the way is regarded as the best manifold Ford produced for the Y. Does yours have a 4bbl on it now?
I currently have a 2bbl.
I examined the photo a little more and the manifold appears to have a layer of gasket intact which looked metallic. I can see outlines of the ridges that I mentioned before, there appears to be no differences in that respect.
hey hey fellow minnesotian. If your looking for the best guy to have the machine work done, call john mummert in california. He's the y-block guru and would think that he would know all the "good" y-block machinists in the usa. just a guess anyways. Also, if you ned some more info on that y-block you got, go to this website. It's john mummerts website with all kinds of go fast motor goodies for the y-block. here's the website: http://www.ford-y-block.com/ he's got all kinds of info on that motor and how to make that baby sing that beautiful kick butt song.
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