Dang!!! I was within days of cutting the scoop out and capping off the up pipe and EGR cooler without a tuner and now I am reading this and I am checking myself. I just always thought it was a stand alone mod.
I am glad I get on here and read all the time, in fact I actually feel like I go through withdrawals sometimes. But it saves me alot of pain like the other day when I was within minutes of going out and using carb cleaner to spray into the intake and then sucking it out with a shop vac to clean it out, until I read where someone else was talking about when they did it and was warning: DON'T DO IT!!! the vac will explode. LOL I guess if I think of it someone else has too.
I thought I read where you guys said the 03 04 models would be more prone to problems if they ran EGR deletes without tuners to counteract the delete. What were the differences that made this an issue. Mine is an 05, I am just curious.
I am not trying to shrug you guys warning off, I am curious if there is anyone out there is running EGR deletes without a tuner and is not having problems.
I would expect the MAP reading to be lower than expected due to less flow.
The MAP sensor reads pressure, not flow. Egr valve open/closed does what to the pressure? Is the onrush of exhaust gas with a functioning egr valve enough to make a significant difference in pressure? If so, is it noticed with a delete?
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ase master tech--fmc master tech81 f150--300 4x4
Vince.....have you ever thought about going into the tuner business???
Nah, not enough challenge. My entire life, I've relished the chance to tangle with a challenge. From mechanic work all the way to my artwork, the more complex, the better. www.vincesart.com
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ase master tech--fmc master tech81 f150--300 4x4
The MAP sensor reads pressure, not flow. Egr valve open/closed does what to the pressure? Is the onrush of exhaust gas with a functioning egr valve enough to make a significant difference in pressure? If so, is it noticed with a delete?
I understand that, but there is always a relationship between flow and pressure in engines, compressors and pumps. Backpressure goes up with flow increases according to the increase in pressure losses from friction. The EGR valve itself does nothing to pressure except by the secondary effect from flow fluctuations and backpressure.
__________________ Mark
06 F250 CC SB ESOF FX4 Lariat 3.73LS 275/65R20; DieselSite Coolant Filter; High Idle Mod; HFCM Plug; Zoodad/Air Fury grill; Accufab Elbow; RACCCV6000 filter; JimmiJammers; Ravelco; SynchroMax in Transfer Case; Fumoto Valve; Harpooned fuel tank; Line-X; CPOhighway Products tool box; tracrac; Fox Weatherboots; Wet Okole Seat Covers; Stanadyne Performance & B2 for lubricity; PIE adapter (thanks Sarge); PIAA 24" wiper blades; updated EGR valve; BriteBox; Re-flashed; Fuel Pressure gauge; DashDaq on deck
Nah, not enough challenge. My entire life, I've relished the chance to tangle with a challenge. From mechanic work all the way to my artwork, the more complex, the better. www.vincesart.com
Sir.......I gain a new respect for you every day. I wish I was 1/100th as talented at drawing.
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Ford Makes It, International Shakes It, Full Force Fuels It, River City Turbo Spools It, ID Tunes It, and Trucks Unlimited keeps her Rockin the Road with 500+ BADASS Ponies
Well the way I would see it is that when you keep the EGR plugged in but block off the exhaust gas flow the PCM still see's the EGR opening and closing. The IAT2 senses that the EGR cooler is doing a terrific job (theoretically) and even though the valve is opening the temps are staying lower than normal operating conditions (cooler unblocked), so the PCM senses it can take a higher intake air temp and boost and it starts to create more boost as it has not yet reached an unsafe threshold of intake temps. Pressure creates heat, one or the other will tell the PCM when to back off on either the IAT2 or the MAP. The MAP sensor would read lower with the cooler blocked off and the valve connected. Using Gay-Lussac's gas law P1/T1=P2/T2, pressure is directly related to temperature and when you increase the temperature, the pressure is going to increase. When that EGR opened originally and exhaust gases flow in at a couple hundred degrees, then if the boost level was climbing it will now have to back off as the intake charge is hot creating pressure sending the MAP signal higher. In laymen terms this means that instead of fresh intake charge creating pressure at the MAP, very hot exhaust gases are introduced at the MAP. The turbo could only be making 5 psi of pressure while the expanding exhaust gases are accounting for 10 psi of pressure at the MAP. So your getting %66 hot exhaust gas and 33% fresh charge.
vloney, what is your take on this? I'm not a ford tech, I'm an engineer (and a farmer so don't roll your eyes) haha
I love these discussions. Very informative for us novices.
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Ford Makes It, International Shakes It, Full Force Fuels It, River City Turbo Spools It, ID Tunes It, and Trucks Unlimited keeps her Rockin the Road with 500+ BADASS Ponies
The IAT2 senses that the EGR cooler is doing a terrific job
The IAT2 just measures temperature. When the pcm commands the egr to open, and it doesn't see a corresponding increase in intake temperature from the IAT2, it looks at other sensors to verify that there actually is egr flow. Because there won't be with a delete, the pcm will try to cycle the vgt duty cycle to get corroborating readings from the sensors (ever hear of people complaining that their turbo was surging?) How about the ones that want to do the "turbo relearn". Will the "relearn" fix it or is there something else that they need to do?
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ase master tech--fmc master tech81 f150--300 4x4
Forgive me, I know we beat the crap out of this horse last weak, all week long and I only continue to bring it up because I don't want to go doing something that will end up costing me in the end. After our conversation through this thread last week I was rather worried about performing an EGR delete so I figured I would call around to some of the companies and try to get some answer straight from the guys who make the delete kits.
I would have liked to have gotten mixed opinions from different companies but River City Diesel was the only one out of three that I called that would answer their phone.
I am hell with names so forgive me when I say that I talked to a guy named Don or Ron and explained to him that I would like to do an EGR delete to my 2005 Ford F250 6.0 and was wondering if I would need a tuner to avoid my truck going into limp mode, surging, or throwing codes.
He told me that that the flashes on the 05 and newer could possibly throw a code if I disconnect the EGR valve and replace it with a block off plate, but that if it threw a code all I would have to do is place the EGR valve back plug it in and it would cycle with no codes. I then asked him if it would go into limp mode or surge because of the computer sensing differences in all of this. I told him it wasn't a big deal I could get a tuner to deal with it and he said no absolutely not, and that I would not need a tuner with their delete kit. They sell tuners so I would think that they would think of this as an additional sale.
I told him that I had heard come conflicting information on the forum and he asked me to hold while he talked to the ford man. I believe his name was Dave. Dave verified the information and said that the truck may throw a code if the EGR valve is unplugged, but that the truck absolutely will not go into limp mode or surge and will run fine without a tuner.
I understand that these guys are salesman but they could have used this opportunity to sell me a kit and a tuner not just a kit. I just figured I would share this. I will be doing an EGR delete without a tuner when I get back from ANCOC in two weeks and will let you guys know how it go's.
hubler13f. I've got an 05 and did the full delete and didn't throw any codes. The truck actually ran a whole lot better. I didn't really think twice about getting rid of it i just knew i wanted it out of there. I still have warranty left on my truck but even with it stock it was like trying to pull teeth to get the dealer to do any work on the truck and when i finally got them to replace my turbo i wish i hadn't, there was more loose bolts and vaccuum lines and bolts missing and grease all over my truck that i decided screw the warranty the only person that's gonna touch my truck from now on is me. Boy.... i got a little keyboard happy there and went off. Sorry.... it just really caps my butt when you can't trust anyone but yourself to do things.
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05 F250 4" turbo back,ccv reroute
coolant filter 6" Fabtech lift, 35x12.50 MTZs
Isspro Gauges, ITP Fuel RR, EGR... well it was there a minute ago...
SCTX3 with innovative tunes, amp research
Airdog ARP studs
Forgive me, I know we beat the crap out of this horse last weak, all week long and I only continue to bring it up because I don't want to go doing something that will end up costing me in the end. After our conversation through this thread last week I was rather worried about performing an EGR delete so I figured I would call around to some of the companies and try to get some answer straight from the guys who make the delete kits.
I would have liked to have gotten mixed opinions from different companies but River City Diesel was the only one out of three that I called that would answer their phone.
I am hell with names so forgive me when I say that I talked to a guy named Don or Ron and explained to him that I would like to do an EGR delete to my 2005 Ford F250 6.0 and was wondering if I would need a tuner to avoid my truck going into limp mode, surging, or throwing codes.
He told me that that the flashes on the 05 and newer could possibly throw a code if I disconnect the EGR valve and replace it with a block off plate, but that if it threw a code all I would have to do is place the EGR valve back plug it in and it would cycle with no codes. I then asked him if it would go into limp mode or surge because of the computer sensing differences in all of this. I told him it wasn't a big deal I could get a tuner to deal with it and he said no absolutely not, and that I would not need a tuner with their delete kit. They sell tuners so I would think that they would think of this as an additional sale.
I told him that I had heard come conflicting information on the forum and he asked me to hold while he talked to the ford man. I believe his name was Dave. Dave verified the information and said that the truck may throw a code if the EGR valve is unplugged, but that the truck absolutely will not go into limp mode or surge and will run fine without a tuner.
I understand that these guys are salesman but they could have used this opportunity to sell me a kit and a tuner not just a kit. I just figured I would share this. I will be doing an EGR delete without a tuner when I get back from ANCOC in two weeks and will let you guys know how it go's.
how did this work out did it run ok with out using the tuner
Just got to reading this thread, and now it is making sense,I did the egr disconect on my '04 right after I bought it. Ran great at first but sounded a little different, wasn't sure because it is the first diesel I have owned, then I started noticing a slight surging at idle and seemed to surge while at cruising speed. after about 400 miles of this I hooked up the egr, and on start up the egr. valve made a loud pop and the engine runs smooth again. Plus no pop since so I imagine it was starting to soot up and was stuck. So I guess I will have to wait and do the egr. delete when I get a spartan tune. But I want to get a full set of gauges installed before I do that..So I guess I learned what you guys all ready figured out. Next time I will do a lot more reading before just making hasty reactions to improve my engine. After all it is way better than the gas rig I was driving prior to the diesel. thanks for all the info. you share on here.
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DOUG
2004 F-350 Super Duty Crew King Ranch . 6.0 psd...coolant, filter, slotted and drilled rotors,kitty ran away, air bags,leveling kit, progigy,piaa lights,
2003 EXP; All stock Wifes ride!!!
2006 2500HD gmc.All stock work trk.
I am not trying to shrug you guys warning off, I am curious if there is anyone out there is running EGR deletes without a tuner and is not having problems.
I've done 11K miles since deleting the EGR cooler. The cooler had failed completely (second time) - exhaust full of coolant - so the option was delete or replace. I am not running any sort of tuner. The truck now runs as good as new. NO hinky driveability issues whatsoever. Completely transparent.
I'm beginning to have faith in the truck again. With two EGR cooler failures I was ready to set fire to the whole thing. With that engineering disaster properly installed in a dumpster where it belongs the truck runs fine.
Current mileage 146K.
Again, my ONLY regret in deleting the EGR cooler is that I didn't do it sooner.
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