OK I am a oil freak. There seems to be a lot of us around here. We should probably start a support group.

Anyway on to the topic, Pennzoil:
I think this oil is treated with a "gang mentality" attitude by novice car nuts like myself. Oil is a easy subject to understand and I think this is why there is so much talk about it. It must work and that is it. It doesn't need to sing or dance, just work.

I bought a new Chevy Camaro in 1992. The car drove me back and forth to college and on several road trips. The only time the car gave me a problem was when the alternator was going bad at @120K. I packed what tools I needed and headed for the parts store to replace the alternator (5 min in the parking lot at the most). Low and behold my battery couldn't take the stress and it died on the way. Both the alt. and the battery were the factory parts. Well a stranger picked me up, hauled me to the parts store where I bought a alternator and a battery and even waited at the store and hauled me back to my car. It took about 10 min. to replace both parts and on my merry way I went for another @60K when I traded the car in on a new Ford F150.

I ran PENNZOIL 10w-40 in that car from day one. Yes, the awful engine killing Pennzoil and on top of that the horrible wieght of 10w-40 that all the sudden somebody decided was bad. That car NEVER used a drop of oil and the motor was never taken apart so I don't know if there was 40lbs of sludge in it or not. I do know when you looked in the filler hole it looked very clean. The motor ran as tight as the day I bought it except it had @180K when traded. However, while the cars running condition was perfect the rest of the car was falling apart i.e. door handles, window cranks, nothing in the car still had the original **** on it, the carpet and seats were shot and so on.

I have heard people talk bad about Pennzoil for years but why? I have yet to see any evidence that the problems frequently discussed really happen. Not one engine builder I have talked to has said this and in my life I have spent quite a bit of time around racetracks and have seen lots of Pennzoil poured in to 20K engines. My girlfriends Infinity gets Pennzoil from the dealer. I just can't see a service garage putting oil in cars that expensive if it caused problems. Maybe they use it because it's GOOD OIL.

Had to get that of my chest. Unless you can back up what you say about Pennzoil with a evidence STOP saying it. I issue a challenge to anyone to present this message board with AUTHORITIVE EVIDENCE that Pennzoil is bad for your engine. If it happens I will get me a big ol' plate of fried crow and chow down with the best of them. Until then can we leave the urban legends to the retards that work at the auto parts store?(another rant for another time)

Later guys


P.S. I am not endorsing Pennzoil over any other brand, I'm just relaying my expierence and disdain with myths preached as the gospel.
By all means use whatever makes you feel good.

 

If this board keeps up with tradition, you will not get any comments about the OIL subject... you'll just get bashed because you owned a Chevy. (Another subject that I laugh at!)

Anyway, the 'retards' that kept spreading this is what made me start researching it. There is no special place in my heart for Pennsoil (sp?) or any other 'brand' of oil. I just tend to think everything is an urban legend until I find the facts.

This 'wax buildup' issue is clearly one of those legends.

Hats off to your comments.

 

Well put Stab, I've used Pennzoil for years and never had a problem. It seems that brand gets alot of negative posts on many boards but I hav'nt seen any documentation to back it up.

 

Well guys.... Here is what I can tell you about Pennziol Many years ago "Penz" was made with Pennsylvania crude. It had a very high paraffin content. This paraffin had a tendency to build as sludge on the walls, valley and oil pans in motors. This made for a very blackend oil and absolutely greasy conditions inside an engine. I think they have since reformulated and corrected the problem, however the stigma still exists.

 

Stab, get your plate of crow and napkin and a fork, you'll be needing them. I work in an automotive machine shop, rebuilding engines. We see all brands and sizes of engines. This week we completed a 9 liter intrnational diesel and several snowmobile engines. We do work for almost all of the new car dealers and many of the independants in town. Many of the garages in town are under contract to sell a certain brand of oil. My boss prefers mobil 1 or valvoline. On many occasions we know the service history of the engine because we can get a computer printout of everything that garage did to it. When tearing failed engines apart to be rebuilt, I frequently find huge gobs of waxy buildup in the pennzoil and quakerstate oiled engines. One 350 SBC that I disassembled had so much wax in the pan that oil pump could not suck up liquid oil anymore. That caused a spun #1 rod bearing, the engine quit running and was removed for rebuilding. The engines that are run on valvoline or mobil 1 or castrol have not had this problem. I am aware that all oil has some wax in it from the ground.....but whatever proprietary formula P and QS use to remove or alter it is not enough. It is very greasy and messy, takes much more effort to clean parts........But, it does assure me of a constant supply of failed engines. I can only go by what I have seen......and I would never put that waxy stuff in one of my engines. I don't get paid to fix my own stuff so I would rather it did not break. DF

 

I doubt I'll eat my crow just yet. I'm not sure "some guy on the internet that says he rebuilds engines" qualifies as hard evidense. Why hasn't someone at your shop written a tech article on it? I'm sure most if not all of the industry magazines would be more than happy to publish something like that. I'm sure that in your shop everyone can tell what kind of oil is in a motor by looking at it? Testing the oil? Maybe smell? Or in the rare instance when the rebuilder gets to see the service records (why would someone show the rebuilder the service records anyway)? I'm sure also that these engines you speak of were good running engines and the Pennzoil did them in? I doubt it. If they were running well they wouldn't need rebuilding. I'm sorry but I asked for hard evidense and not rumor or heresay and that is all you have brought to the topic. Sorry to dissapoint but the crow is still in the freezer for now.

 

DF, did it occur to you that the reason you're rebuilding those engines is because, well, they need to be rebuilt? Of course you're going to find sludge... you don't rebuild good engines.

Most motor oils use paraffinic base stocks. However, the word "paraffinic" has nothing to do with wax the way that you're thinking about it. When crude oil is subjected to chemical analysis, it is found to have little chemical affinity... thus it is called "paraffinic." The word comes from latin "parum" + "affinis" which literally means "lack of affinity." Crude oil has an inconsistent mixture of long and short chain molecules... it's the very long chain molecules that cause problems, the same long chain molecules that make candle wax solid at room temperature.

If the waxes that naturally occured in oil were not removed (or cracked), they would lower the pour point of the oil. That would mean that your "waxy Penzoil" would probably not even come out of the bottle on a cold morning. Obviously that's not the case. In fact, all motor oils are dewaxed using solvents or by using an isodewaxing procedure. Still, the dewaxed motor oils are still paraffinic, and ones that are dewaxed by isodewaxing are highly paraffinic, which is actually better, because they are less reactive. Regardless, the dewaxed oil has almost no long chain molecules.

Engine sludge is not wax. There is no way for the short chain hydrocarbons to spontaneously combine into the long chain molecules that could cause any type of wax to crystalize out of the motor oil. Your sludge is usually a mixture of oxidized oil, contaminants, soot and unburned fuel. It may look and feel "waxy," but if you have it chemically analyzed, you'll find there's no wax.

 

Maybe the real cause of the sludge was oxidation from the 10W-40 grade that was so popular in the past, or by plugged PCV systems.

Even though all oils "meet or exceed" reqirements, they do not have identical formulations. I rebuilt VW engines in the 1970's and asked customers what oil they used. At that time, I could tell the brand of oil by the type and color of deposits in the engine. Castrol always left a gray grit like bearing material, but there was no exessive bearing wear. Valvoline tended to leave a breather system plugged with cream colored sludge. Pennzoil tended to be one of the cleanest. These were air-cooled engines without oil filters that only held 2.5 Qt of SAE 30.

My point is that, while there are diffences in brands, things to change over time. I currently use Chevron Delo.

'57 Chevy
'68 VW
'92 BMW
'94 F150 4x4

 

Pennzoil cost me $2,000! It completely gummed up the engine on my wifes Topaz. Oil starvation resulted and the engine FRIED! I know what it looked like because the mechanic showed me the engine after he had it apart. And I know the oil was changed regularly because I did it myself. I kept that engine well tuned, there were no internal coolant leaks, the PCV valve functioned fine. The mechanic asked me what oil we used and I told him: Pennzoil 5W30. He said that was believable because HE had seen many engines that Pennzoil had done that to. Never again will I use Pennzoil!

 

Stab, I can only tell you what I have found on disassembly. I don't think my shop will write any tech articles on the subject either. The shops in our area that are selling the P and QS are selling it because their contract pays them to do so, and because P and QS are some really big players in the industry I would expect most of the engine rebuider magazines would rather not print it. Why risk offending one of your huge advertizers ? The waxy buildup issue seems well know among machinists and technicians. If your looking for "evidence" you may not be able to get any to your satisfaction. But there are 3 engine shops in the town I am in and all of the owners recomend Mobil one or Valvoline, and none of them use Pennzoil. Surely that says something..........DF

 

I'm not an expert but why didn't my engine have any problems with the Pennzoil? I would imagine that after flogging that car for 180K that the sludge would have caused a problem. It didn't. If it is so common that everyone that has ever seen the inside of a motor knows about it then why did my engine not feel the effects? I may be crazy but are you saying that it only happens to some motors? So if Pennzoil only forms sludge in some motors and not others would you please explain to me why.

One more thing. Just because some of the shops in your area recommend something doesn't mean it is so. In my expierence at least 4 out of 5 automotive machinist are incompetent and 9 out 10 mechanics/technicians are not able to change an air filter properly. Why do you think race teams have to set up thier own engine shops? Because the general shops are not capable of high end precision work.

 

Stab, maybe you're just lucky ! I would agree there are some really scary techs and machinists out there. I have wondered if running the engine too cool might be part of the problem ? maybe the pennzoil doesn't like to run cold. There are lots of folks out there who have bought into the myth that a cooler running engine is a good thing- I'm not sure how that started. I run a 205 stat in all of my stuff. It may be that P and QS in an engine run hot enough might be okay. But since the Mobil 1 and valvoline engines that I disassemble never have the crud in them, thats what I will continue to run. you pays yer money and takes yer chances.........DF

 

To each their own Dino.

I'm glad you didn't take offense to the machinist/tech comments because after reading them a day later the comments look a little smart assed (but true IMO). I am a firm believer in running what you are comfortable with as I think piece of mind is the most important thing when it comes to oil. I'm not sure but I think the Camaro had a 160 degree thermostat. Go figure. I would have to dig up my old service manual to be sure though.

Later

BTW, even though this is a Ford board does it **** anyone of besides me when Camaro is spelled "Camero"? It seems to happen quite often. Maybe it just gets to me because I used to have one. I love Ford trucks but Chevy muscle gets my blood pumping like nothing else. Please don't start flaming me because I like Chevy's to. Hell I already admitted that Ford trucks are the cats ***(had to add that as a sort of "flame" insurance).

 

The thread entitled "Hey Greenpus, about that parrafin......." seems to explain this topic quite well.