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  #16  
Old 04-15-2014, 03:55 PM
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I think this should be brought back from the dead

lol.

I might buy one for my 6.4.
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Old 04-15-2014, 04:51 PM
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They use them for fuel too, filters to 0.1 micron nominal, and the filter absorbs up to 170 ml of water.

Seems like this might be key for 6.4 and 6.7 fuel systems.

There is a guy that went 100,000 miles on dino engine oil, changing the paper every oil change and adding a quart or so.
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Old 04-15-2014, 05:10 PM
pawpaw pawpaw is offline
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It's your engine, so you can use whatever you like for an oil filer, BUT you'll also have to Warranty your decision, so you might like to rethink this one!!!

As some toilet paper is designed to begin breaking down when exposed to water & condensation gets mixed in with & circulated with our oil, no telling what'll get pumped into the engine.
Seeing as how that kind of paper, or roll configuration was never designed for hot or cold oil filtering operations, doesn't have a bypass or anti-drainback valve, no telling how clean/particle/lint free it is, nor how chlorine free the paper is, nor how it'll hold up & under hot & cold oil pressure, on & on it goes!!!!
Danged if I'd risk an engine to toliet paper, to save the cost of a $3-$4 oil filter at WallyWorld!!!!
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  #19  
Old 04-15-2014, 08:50 PM
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Originally Posted by pawpaw View Post
It's your engine, so you can use whatever you like for an oil filer, BUT you'll also have to Warranty your decision, so you might like to rethink this one!!!

As some toilet paper is designed to begin breaking down when exposed to water & condensation gets mixed in with & circulated with our oil, no telling what'll get pumped into the engine.
Seeing as how that kind of paper, or roll configuration was never designed for hot or cold oil filtering operations, doesn't have a bypass or anti-drainback valve, no telling how clean/particle/lint free it is, nor how chlorine free the paper is, nor how it'll hold up & under hot & cold oil pressure, on & on it goes!!!!
Danged if I'd risk an engine to toliet paper, to save the cost of a $3-$4 oil filter at WallyWorld!!!!
You are not replacing a 4$ walmart filter, this is a bypass that is supposed to filter far superior to a normal oil filter.

The internet is full of comments like "good idea, use butt wipe to protect you're 60,000$ truck", "This is a joke, I'm unsubscribing, don't come crying when your oil is full of paper mache", and "Theres no proof this works".

However, as easy it is to make fun of filtering with a roll of toilet paper, the guys that actually use it have had great luck, and oil analysis reports specifying that the oil is cleaner, in fact much much cleaner, with the TP filter, then the OEM oil filter alone.

So yes, it's easy to laugh at guys that are using a roll of toilet paper to filter their trucks oil, but is it really that funny, if their oil is far cleaner than ours with our motorcraft or wix etc ?
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  #20  
Old 04-15-2014, 09:26 PM
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As you well know, filtering oil is more than just the size or quantity of particle counts!!!!
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  #21  
Old 04-15-2014, 11:01 PM
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Originally Posted by pawpaw View Post
As you well know, filtering oil is more than just the size or quantity of particle counts!!!!
What Are Clearance-Sized Particles, CSP?

You are correct.
But filtering oil better than stock filters is also going to help reduce wear, and oil reports confirm that, along with using a roll of TP working very well.

I'm not thinking of using this as an extended oil change program, but heck what can it hurt if it's a cheap effective method of filtering?

Sure I wouldn't bother with a truck under warranty, but after that, it seems like a great idea.
It almost sounds like snake oil, I admit it, but this doesn't appear to be the case.
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  #22  
Old 04-15-2014, 11:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dtpatt21 View Post
I hate ignorant posts about a Frantz filter. "you vehicle won't last" go to bobistheoil.com and look at their bypass filter forum if you want to get educated. Cellulose(paper) gets stronger in oil... It's been proven by millions of miles of driving and UOA's. Many people just change the filter element every 2k miles, send in a sample, add a qt and go...
Its also used (a variant- paper towel) in almost every military vehicle deployed and many of the long-hauler diesel rigs use them as well- standard equipment.
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  #23  
Old 04-15-2014, 11:43 PM
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Well lets think about this some more. If it filters to .1u nom, as you indicated in your initial post, that means that it captures 50% of the .1u particles that pass through it. filtering that small can remove ad pack particles & thats not good!!!! So too fine a filter isn't advisable.
Of course all toilet paper isn't the same recipe, nor has the same amount of paper on a roll, so lots of uncontrollables there.
Not one manufacturer world wide uses, nor specifies this kind of oil filter for their engines for a reason, so imo I'd just leave this toilet paper filter thought in the archives, where it belongs!!!!
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  #24  
Old 04-16-2014, 10:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pawpaw View Post
Well lets think about this some more. If it filters to .1u nom, as you indicated in your initial post, that means that it captures 50% of the .1u particles that pass through it. filtering that small can remove ad pack particles & thats not good!!!! So too fine a filter isn't advisable.
Of course all toilet paper isn't the same recipe, nor has the same amount of paper on a roll, so lots of uncontrollables there.
Not one manufacturer world wide uses, nor specifies this kind of oil filter for their engines for a reason, so imo I'd just leave this toilet paper filter thought in the archives, where it belongs!!!!

This guy does a far better job of explaining :
*Anatomy of a Frantz toilet paper bypass oil filter - A - Dodge Cummins Diesel Forum
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  #25  
Old 04-16-2014, 04:49 PM
Beechkid Beechkid is offline
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IMHO, here is part of the BS marketing that has been occurring for several years now.....to start with...
1. No automotive oil filter can filter at greater than 10 microns, anything more than that, oil flow is significantly reduced and the engine is starved. Hydraulic systems use filters rated at 5 microns, but they are never spec'd for automotive use.
2. OEM filters typically filter at around 15 microns
3. The oems spec that (in almost every case) the minimum filtering will be at 20 microns.
4. The check-valves (anti-drain & relief) inside the filter must be capable of withstanding the demands but it is also well known/recognized/accepted that the greater filtration the shorter is the duration that the filter will function without the bypass opening....this begins occurring as soon as 90 day duration.

and the bypass filters....typically around the 3-5 micron range...not enough to restrict any chemical property within the oil.
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  #26  
Old 04-16-2014, 05:12 PM
parkland parkland is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Beechkid View Post
IMHO, here is part of the BS marketing that has been occurring for several years now.....to start with...
1. No automotive oil filter can filter at greater than 10 microns, anything more than that, oil flow is significantly reduced and the engine is starved. Hydraulic systems use filters rated at 5 microns, but they are never spec'd for automotive use.
2. OEM filters typically filter at around 15 microns
3. The oems spec that (in almost every case) the minimum filtering will be at 20 microns.
4. The check-valves (anti-drain & relief) inside the filter must be capable of withstanding the demands but it is also well known/recognized/accepted that the greater filtration the shorter is the duration that the filter will function without the bypass opening....this begins occurring as soon as 90 day duration.

and the bypass filters....typically around the 3-5 micron range...not enough to restrict any chemical property within the oil.

I think everything you said is right, but the frantz filer is a bypass EXTRA filter, it does not replace the normal oil filter.
It flows a tiny amount of oil, and filters constantly.
Oil pressure remains unaffected, normal oil filter operation remains unaffected.

Let me ask it this way.
GM's oil study says removing the smaller particles in the oil can lead to an engine that lasts 5x longer or more (based on wear rates)... doesn't that sound like a normal OEM filter works "good enough", but not enough to maximize engine lifespan??


So what do we have?

-At least 1 major industry leader study telling us better filtration can make an engine wear 5x slower or even more.

-Real world usage stories, including used oil reports proving that it indeed works as advertised.

-A bunch of people laughing at the sight of putting a roll of toilet paper under you're hood.
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  #27  
Old 04-16-2014, 06:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by parkland View Post
I think everything you said is right, but the frantz filer is a bypass EXTRA filter, it does not replace the normal oil filter.
It flows a tiny amount of oil, and filters constantly.
Oil pressure remains unaffected, normal oil filter operation remains unaffected.

Let me ask it this way.
GM's oil study says removing the smaller particles in the oil can lead to an engine that lasts 5x longer or more (based on wear rates)... doesn't that sound like a normal OEM filter works "good enough", but not enough to maximize engine lifespan??


So what do we have?

-At least 1 major industry leader study telling us better filtration can make an engine wear 5x slower or even more.

-Real world usage stories, including used oil reports proving that it indeed works as advertised.

-A bunch of people laughing at the sight of putting a roll of toilet paper under you're hood.
You are sooooo right!

and BTW, I run a franz on my 1965 mustang....the machinist darn near insisted on it.......but I wanted it anyway!
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  #28  
Old 04-16-2014, 09:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Beechkid View Post
You are sooooo right!

and BTW, I run a franz on my 1965 mustang....the machinist darn near insisted on it.......but I wanted it anyway!

Any thoughts or opinions to share?
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  #29  
Old 04-17-2014, 10:05 AM
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Here is Cummins lubrication/filter tutorial thoughts on how & why they want their engines lubed & the oil filtered.
www.kleenoilusa.com/pdf/warranty/Cummins-Oil_ServiceBulletin_May-07.pdf.

In short, I take it that their lube film thickness using the specified viscosity oil, seems to be about 40u, so their spin-on dual filter primary media takes out particles 30u & larger & its built in 10% bypass media takes out particles down to 10u.
Seeing as how the film thickness with their specified viscosity oil is about 40u, the few particles smaller than 30u get suspended in the 40u oil film until the bypass media removes them later on.

So it seems that Cummins thinks down in section 8, that the few particles smaller than 10u in a 40u thick lurbricating oil film, don't cause serious engine abrasive wear & the few particles in the oil that are between 30u & 10u, don't cause any undue problems until they are removed by the built in bypass filter media later.

In another area they explain how UOA wear numbers can be misleading if Chemical/corrosive wear is taking place from additive depletion, as they say that type wear doesn't show up in the usual UOA.

It seems that the Franz filter business has some problems after Feb 2014, so they may not be available & one person is still selling their recommended bagged hard paper filter media for $3 a roll & they caution against using soft/fluffly paper.

Seeing as how none of this kind of commercial product is manufactured to meet any kind of oil filtering specification & who's production line isn't regularly quality inspected against any such specification, so isn't under any meaningful production control/inspection, the paper mfgr can make any unannounced recipe or production changes, anytime they wish & we wouldn't know it. So again, I just don't see the wisdom of risking an engine to this kind of uncontrolled oil filtering media scheme, just way too many uncontrolled variables for it to be a safe idea imo.
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  #30  
Old 04-17-2014, 01:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pawpaw View Post
So it seems that Cummings thinks down in section 8,
You didn't just do that ... lol jk
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Old 04-17-2014, 01:00 PM
 
 
 
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