Why the pissing match here... Hands Freaking down the pre 66..actually Mid year head on down will out perform the smaller port heads..Better known as the short port heads...and the difference in the cross section of the Tall port heads VS. the small port heads for TQ...is Minimum !! you cant hardly feal it by the azz-O meter !! but the big end is well worth while !
Granted Velocity makes Tq... But how much Tq can you use on the street? You take a 428 and stuff a set of C1's 2' 3's or 4's on it..with CJ size valve's and see where your go... If your running light to light or the 1/4 mile....with a cam that will let the heads do there job..its NO contest !!
Someone tell me why...beside the weight loss..alot of builder's go with Edheads ? they only flow about 250/260 out of the box ! de-bured and cleaned up about 270cfm..and thats with a tootsie roll clean up.. and can go up too about 310 cfm and some claim 330cfm on there bench's... But thats for a 4.130" hole or better....or a notched cylinder!
But you guys get back into your pissing match ! I'll just read !! I know what works and what doesnt..So I dont get impressed over picking Nat chit out of pepper !! Carry on !!
Art !! if I have one more guy write me and say there bailing out becuase of these 50 year old kids !! and I have to beg them to stay....and just consider the source from which it comes!! I'am gonna Blow a F**kin Gasket !! and it wont be in between cylinders either !!
Gene ! I know you meen well and so does bear !! I'am not the Cyber Cop..just another FE builder among others... But do some research please..I dont go by books and all that BS..maybe I Should...that way i can quote from my pages.... Mine come's from experience and the heart of what works and what doesnt !!
I have never made the pages of Hot Rod Mag, Like Barry R..and JB and KC..and other FE guys..But my stuff has alwat ran..and dint break any parts...Had to be that way..because I like some dont have deep pockets...and i dont brag about WTF the Dyno said either !! We dont race Dyno numbers..We dont race computer keyborads either !! the bottom line is ..I'am not talking smack !! Put up or shut up !! i have never talked about what old blue did in the 1/4...because frankly I'am in-bare -azzed!! She should have done better !! But its all at the track...Not on paper !! Or in my head..Its the time slips..rather my work did it or not...
Well i hope you too find out who has the longer D*ck...because some of us have lost interest!!
The End of Rant..and Art if you se need to Void this comment feel free..because I'am getting to the point where I dont care anymore...i was her just for the kids, too keep them from going to the ricers !!
~Russ
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Blue Saphire 70 F250 42? in the making/Rollerized C6/4:10 Locker
With a Secret BBF/TBA sometime??
...i was her just for the kids, too keep them from going to the ricers !!
~Russ
I hope you weren't talking about me in your comment...i'm just 17, going on 18 in 5 days and i love to learn about the FE. I try to learn as much as i can and i love to ask questions because i like to find the true answers. Just some people hates alot of questions :/...But since you seem to know your stuff pretty well i was wondering about my next build i'm going to do.
By the end of summer after i've collected a few bucks, i want to get a 390 block and bore it .40 over and use Keith black 20cc dished pistons, and either stay with the 3.78 crank or move up to a 4.250 crank, any added power in just bigger cranks? i know you get alot of cubs outta it but is that worth the worst mileage? But after that i'll get some forged eagle rods and an rpm intake, around a 272 duration cam with the other 390gt heads i have. Topped off with a 750 holley double pumper. Do you have any idea what compression i'd be running and how much power i'd have with just the motor? I'm hoping for around 12.5 to 1 compression and around 450-500 hp...maybe, and than i'll put a 200-250 shot nitrous on it. Good idea or bad??? Does the motor sound good?
Actually the CJ's are basically just low-risers with extra bolt holes- not "special" heads- even the valves still have vestigal nubs in the center, not as large, but like the ones that were to work with the bumper top '63-'64-'65 low risers. The CJ was basically early low-riser heads, a 390GT juice cam, PI/low riser rods, and an improved cast iron version of the aluminum PI intake- a very strong, inexpensive engine built from existing parts on a 428 production block, by Bob Tasca, and put into production by Ford. And low riser ports (and chamber) are pretty close if not the same as the plain C4AE heads, just larger valves. You can build the functional equivalent of a CJ head by installing the larger valves in a plain C4AE head- just won't have the extra bolt holes. The later small (high) port heads follow the medium riser port style, since the lower part of the port doesn't move much air anyway, and the velocity improved with the smaller cross-section- ever looked at a set of MR's? You'll see that smaller, high port just like the later plain-jane heads. Yes, CJ's will outperform on top, especially with larger size engines- and the smaller-valve heads will be more torquey down low- like in a 4x4 engine. I have run both on the same 427 in a highrider, the plain C4AE heads had awesome torque and throttle response down low, and with the CJ's it started to really run good around 3500, with less low-end than the C4AE's. If you were to look at the ports in a stock iron CJ intake manifold, you would also find the smaller, higher port like a medium riser- and it works just fine with the downstream mismatch in the CJ heads, as the low part of the port is pretty much dead air anyway. This stuff is all pretty common knowledge amongst folks with 427 and CJ experience, not something I thought up. Do a little research on the serious FE car forums and you'll find the same info. BTW, the Streetmasters, Street Dominators and such also have the high, smaller port design, and will also work just fine with the older, tall-port heads, as well as the newer heads that "match" that port size
So why are you ignoring the increased valve sizes in the CJ heads over the stock 390/428 heads? I don't suppose that the valve size effects performance in your world, but on the race track and the dyno it sure does.
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Bear 45/70 Gimp Racing
“There are only two things stopping you, common sense and fear! And not much of the latter.”
Russ, I'm not sure where you get the idea that I'm working out of books, I've done the long haul same as you- got my first 427 in '77, currently have 9 of 'em, and 2CJ's, an SCJ, a couple plain 428's, enough 390 & 360 cores to last 'till I'm dirt. Currently 5 sets of CJ's, 3 Ebocks, C3 low risers, C4 "big H" big valve low risers, couple sets of C2 406's, couple plain C4's, half a dozen C1's, some D2's, C6's, etc., so I have a pretty good idea what they look like and measure. Pretty much have at least one of most every popular intake, multiples of some. Also have a pretty good investment in a couple lathes, a Bridgeport, 3 valve machines, blah blah, so I've seen the inside of 'em a bit too. And I agree, the best bang for the buck is a set of plain C4's (or C1's even), with or without big valves depending on what you're doing, basically the same head as a low riser/CJ with standard valves, and you can usually pick 'em up for a hundred bux at a swap meet. For a 4x4, I prefer the standard size valves, torque and throttle response is excellent on a larger engine- car engine, big valve by all means. Take a 416/428, C4 heads, a good intake with a side-float Holley, a decent cam, and you've got a helluva torque-monster 4x4 engine. And if you do a little research yourself, you might find that the medium riser was able to support the same power levels as the tall-port heads with a smaller, high port, as the lower area was pretty much dead air- same as has been done with the Cleveland-type heads, smaller, higher, more efficient ports, more power than ever.
One reason a lot of folks go with Ebocks, is that by the time you replace guides, seats, valves, surface, etc., you have a lot of bux invested- and for a few more, you have all brand new, easier to port, lighter..
I think what Russ is trying to say, is that there are a few here that nit pick every word people write, instead of trying to work together. After awhile, it is just not worth the effort to be here on this site. This site could be so much more, if people would show a little respect. To pick out one or two words to gripe about in a post of 50 or more is not showing much. I was building FE's when some of you were in diapers, and this does NOT mean that I know it all, just as none of us know it all. Each of us can contribute good or bad to this forum. It is up to each of us to go one way or the other. I for one choose not to get into a pissing contest with anyone on this site. If you are looking for an argument, than look elsewhere, because it takes two to argue, and I for one am done. Each of us has an opinion, and that is just it,,, an opinion..
End of rant...Bear,,, I am not talking about you kid... I enjoy your posts...
and no, 1969highboy,,, he was not talking about you...You are the type of guy Russ wants to help.
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2006 F350 PSD,4x4
2007 Focus
1960 Falcon, 434CJ, 787 hp
non Fords
Highly modified 240Z V8
300ZXT stock
By the end of summer after i've collected a few bucks, i want to get a 390 block and bore it .40 over and use Keith black 20cc dished pistons, and either stay with the 3.78 crank or move up to a 4.250 crank, any added power in just bigger cranks? i know you get alot of cubs outta it but is that worth the worst mileage? But after that i'll get some forged eagle rods and an rpm intake, around a 272 duration cam with the other 390gt heads i have. Topped off with a 750 holley double pumper. Do you have any idea what compression i'd be running and how much power i'd have with just the motor? I'm hoping for around 12.5 to 1 compression and around 450-500 hp...maybe, and than i'll put a 200-250 shot nitrous on it. Good idea or bad??? Does the motor sound good?
If you're serious about a big-inch engine, you might be well advised to just get one of Barry's kits, instead of individual pieces, for several reasons. Nothing wrong with Eagle rods, I have a set in a 454 stroker 427, but if you get the SCAT kit, you'll also get the rods & crank set up for the big Chebbie rod bearings, a big improvement. Probably Diamond pistons, and he'll know what dish you'll need to work with whatever heads you end up with, 12.5 to one isn't going to be too realistic if you actually want to drive it around in a truck- and going .040 right off the bat isn't necessary, usually a good idea to go the smallest overbore you can and get off-the-shelf rings. The stronger cylinder walls will more than offset a couple cubic inches, and it can be rebuilt a couple more times in the future. His regular .030- 390 block/ 4.25 setup will give you a healthy 445. He also has cams for all applications, and good advice to go with them. Good candidate for some C4 heads with the CJ/ low riser valves at that engine size, or if you have the bux, Barry's lightly ported Ebocks. Barry will put the whole bottom end kit together, everything will fit right and work together, and his support is second to none- just call him if you have a problem, and he'll personally answer the phone and deal with it.
Well the thing is is that we already have a set of the keith black pistons haha so we gotta use em, i know its not always worth it to bore it to the max but less than a month ago we just finished my truck and we bored that .60 over with a 3.98 crank, i wish i could go with the kit from barry, i have looked into them alot but being we already have $350 worth of pistons i might as well put them to use, also i remembered these pistons are for a 390 so i gotta keep the 3.78 crank, so it won't be a stroker anymore
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