If you have broadband it will load fairly quickly but if you have dialup, let me know and I will e-mail you the file. It downloads in .pdf format and would take a long time with dialup.
Regards,
Alan
__________________ Kingston, Nevada, right in the middle, Toiyabe Mtns, 6200'
'53 F250 Flatbed 4 x 4 FI 350 SBC ,AC, PS (In Process)
2001 Chevy Silverado 1500 4WD
1994 S-10 Blazer 4WD, 80 Olds w/ FI Chevy 350 (In Process) Trucks must work or they are not trucks.......
I put one of their kits on my 48. It's been on for almost three years 4000 miles and works great. It was probably one of the easiest projects i have done so far.
I have a lot of trouble with this kit. I do NOT consider it safe.
First off, it increases the unsprung weight of the front suspension. If you want your truck to handle better you need to REDUCE the unsprung weight.
Second, the steering gear is not positively attached to the axle. If the bolts come loose, the rack and pinion unit will slide on the axle. You have just lost the ability to control your truck. That rack unit is only held in place by the friction of the brackets to the axle. The design is flawed. You should not loose directional control if bolts come loose.
Third, the long pogo stick of a steering shaft is not a good idea. That is the only thing that prevents bump steer. If the shaft should hang up and stick from lack of lubrication, you will feel every bump that your suspension reacts to. Those bumps will be sent right back to your steering wheel. Again a flawed design. The normal working of the suspension should NOT effect the steering of the vehicle.
This "steering improvement" is a flawed design and should not be used by anyone who wants a safe vehicle.
I have a lot of trouble with this kit. I do NOT consider it safe.
..............
This "steering improvement" is a flawed design and should not be used by anyone who wants a safe vehicle.
There were threads about this in the past, with the same conclusion. I know of no other steering system used by any manufacturer in the world where the rack is not mounted directly to the frame, for what should be obvious reasons.
I have looked at the No Limit document and find that this unit is very similar in design and function as the FOMOCO power assist sytem that came on my 56 F100. I have a few personal opinions to express regarding what has been stated in this thread:
- unsprung weight, yeah it does add some weight to the axle but is anyone who is running this type of suspension really concerned about handling to the point that they would see a difference with/without this unit bolted to the axle? I don't see too many effie enthusiasts drilling out their straight axles to reduce weight and enhance handling.
- two machined aluminum mounting blocks with four bolts each is not "positive mounting"? This unit is mounted far better than the FOMOCO OEM unit that used u-bolts like found on an exhaust system. I would have no problem with the safety factor here.
- bump steer comes when the wheels move up and down causing a change in the effective length of the steering/tie rod causing the rod to pull/push on the steering arm at the wheel. In this arrangement the rack and pinion unit is mounted to the axle and this will NEVER have a change in angle to the steering arm at the wheel no matter how many bumps you hit. I have no knowledge of the "pogo stick" design and how well it functions but I am sure that it would have no effect on the bumpsteer unless the whole column binds and causes the axle to twist. If that's the case you have a lot more to worry about than bumpsteer.
I have no dog in this fight other than from an academic standpoint, but if I were looking at this system I would put more weight in the actual experiences of those who have installed and driven their trucks with the unit than those who speculate, myself included.
The difference between the FoMoCo system and this one is that the Ford design is only a power assist; it could fall off completely and there would be no loss of control.
In response to the ideas of Unsprung weight: This is kind of a wash, as you, in installing the kit, removed weight from the left spindle (steering arm) and the the entire tie rod and the partial weight of the drag link. You have then added the entire weight of the Power Rack and Pinion. This unit can also be secured with through bolts going through the axle. The weight added is under 35 lbs and this is about the same as the tires I use on my '53 over the stock tires.
In response to the Pogo Stick: This refers to the steering shaft which is a universal jointed sliding shaft that connects the column to the steering gear. This is a high maintenance item. There is no safety factor here, no redundancy. However, given the number of tie rod ends that have broken too easily on F-100s particularly on ones with heavy front ends and big tires, I think that it is acceptable. In fact, there is no redundancy in a stock system with the drag link, the steering gear, or tie rods.
As far as how the truck handles with one: It reduces so much friction that I would not use the power steering option. I drove a '56 for four years with a 223 Six with manual steering, I had rebuilt the Gemmer Steering Gear and the axle had new kingpins. I did not feel that the truck needed power steering then. When I put one of these on a '56 with a SBC and a llightweight T5, it steered so much easier that the power rack could have not been used, unless the power steering was only for parallel parking or a lot of low speed parking lot driving in a city. My wife, who drove a '66 Falcon Van (Econoline with passenger seats and windows) which had no power steering and a smaller diameter steering wheel, felt that the '56 steered lightly enough without power. This was not judged with parallel parking, by her, however.
In driving 4 x 4s, which with a solid front axle, have huge amounts of unsprung weight, and comparing them to IFS 4 X 4s,there is a large amount of what amounts to a much better ride quality, but little of what you would term handling. When driven on pavement which is smooth, there is no handling difference at normal speeds. The handling difference is felt as response to bumps, harshness of bumps, and handling in a bumpy turn, but this is normally on dirt. The front end will slide more on a bumpy turn in dirt. But now, comparing a solid 4 X 4 axle weight with a beam axle with a power rack, is about 85 lbs compared to 250.
I cannot agree with the statement "I do not consider the system to be safe". I do consider the system to be safe. The steering shaft must be maintained, but any modern car has a flexible steering shaft that must be maintained.
Regards,
Alan
__________________ Kingston, Nevada, right in the middle, Toiyabe Mtns, 6200'
'53 F250 Flatbed 4 x 4 FI 350 SBC ,AC, PS (In Process)
2001 Chevy Silverado 1500 4WD
1994 S-10 Blazer 4WD, 80 Olds w/ FI Chevy 350 (In Process) Trucks must work or they are not trucks.......
The difference between the FoMoCo system and this one is that the Ford design is only a power assist; it could fall off completely and there would be no loss of control.
That MAY be true and then again it may not. Who's to say what happens if the power assist assembly comes loose from the axle and stays connected to the tie rod? This is not a situation that I would like to find myself in. One thing that I do know for sure is that the FOMOCO power assist unit has a far weaker design when it comes to axle mounting than does the No Limit and yet no one seems to have raised a red flag about it.
Hello all F'n truckers. I am Rob, owner of No Limit. I don't want to appear to be hiding, or only pushing our parts, but i would like to discuss reality. After 25 years in business, we have our own reputation to protect. And, it is in our interest to help the hobby grow in a positive mannor.
It may be true that everyone is entitled to thier own opinion, but, facts are facts, and we should all try to be FAIR, and RESONABLE. I have read many statements about our rack P/S kits, and as odd as it seams, I study them all. Again, it is in our best interest to make good quality parts.
Our 'STARP' P/S kits are 'vehicle specific', not a one size fits all kit. We believe them to be well thought out, and relitively easy to install. They include a rebuilt rack, with modified tie rod ends, rack clamps, u-joint and slip shaft.
BUMP STEER, is a condition where in the steering linkage moves in a different arc than the suspension, causing the vehicle to "steer" when it hits a "bump". Feel free to google it. Because we mount the rack to the axle, they move in the EXACT same arcs. Ours, may be the only kit with ZERO bumpsteer.
We provide new steering arms, so that the trucks still retain the factory turning radius left and right. They are heat treated, and we supply grade-8 hardware for them.
We machine billit rack mounts for these kits. these are vehicle specific as well. Two per kit. Each uses four (4) 5/16 x 18, 1" long capscrews, torqued to 34 ft.lbs. Each clamp provides 26,000 lbs of clamping force. x two clamps, + 52,000 lbs clamping force. We recomend, and supply, red loctite for these. YES, they could come undone. Then again, the wheel could fall off, the motor could fall out, and, Mt St. Helens could erupt and spew hot ashh on you. - but it's not REASONABLE to fear these things.
Honestly, the un-sprung weight comment is a new one. COME-ON, REALLY? OK, our p/s kit adds 3.5 lbs of unsprung weight. Be FAIR, this kit is to help make an old truck easier to steer. If you were serious about performance, you'd be running one of our WideRide IFS kits anyway. Check the Del-Mar Goodguys autocross results to see how we beat up the camaros. Now, if one of you str8 axle guys has a milled and drilled axle, composit springs, Bilstien inertia-valve shocks and a tuneable blade sway bar, THEN, unsprung weight may be a FAIR comment, but weight, a disk converion kit adss about 28lbs, 28lbs of UNSPRUNG weight. any comments on that?
We provide a Flaming River u-joint and slip shaft. For additional safety, we send the slip shafts out to be heat treated. they include dust boots and grease fitting, It is up to you to use them.
I would be glad to answer any and questions about these kits. Ohh, by the way, a few other manufacturers DO USE THIS SET-UP. Rolls Royce/Overland, Unimog, Range Rover, and the U.S.MILITARY. God-Bless, and have a great Fourth of July
I always think it is cool to have a vendor on the board...welcome Rob! Good first post. Hope you stick around to answer more questions in the future about your products!
__________________ 1953 Ford F100 Project Building some family memories through empty pockets, busted knuckles, and muffled swear words!
Well, I hope I didn't offend anyone. Thanks. Sorry, but we don't do a manual kit, we tried it, but its a bit harder to turn than stock, kind of defeats the purpose. Check out the early 70's Dodge van man box, it's pretty good, - no, I dont have any install info. I did a few way back when, they fit in the stock sector hole with a bit of fab work. I know vintage is in now, but we're really IFS guys here. Good luck
Well, I hope I didn't offend anyone. Thanks. Sorry, but we don't do a manual kit, we tried it, but its a bit harder to turn than stock, kind of defeats the purpose. Check out the early 70's Dodge van man box, it's pretty good, - no, I dont have any install info. I did a few way back when, they fit in the stock sector hole with a bit of fab work. I know vintage is in now, but we're really IFS guys here. Good luck
Thanks
I'm not a vintage Is In type of guy - I'm a Vintage Crabby old fart that operates in my own little world.
Oh I have a Toyota Manual box to replace the stock Ford one - was just checking on the rack ?
__________________
Dick C
Erie, PA
1948 Ford F1 Panel
1997 Ford Explorer http://www.4TL8Ford.com
Signature Mod Test
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