So I went to a Ford/Navistar fleet maintenance seminar... - Ford Truck Enthusiasts Forums



So I went to a Ford/Navistar fleet maintenance seminar...

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Old 05-20-2009, 08:43 AM
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So I went to a Ford/Navistar fleet maintenance seminar...

I went to a Ford/Navistar fleet maintenance seminar last night at the local Ford dealer. The Navistar guy was really down on biodiesel. He stated that the quality of bio is unregulated, showed pictures of bio that he said they had pumped that was full of water, and said that the 6.0 and 6.4s could not handle the particulates in biodiesel. He claimed it would soot up the EGR valve in no time at all. He told lots of horror stories about biodiesel.

Although the presenter claimed to not have any agenda, he was pushing everyone to use only Ford/Motorcraft parts for maintenance. He said that aftermarket filters (fuel and oil) cannot make a filter that fits correctly, because the motorcraft parts are patented. He specifically claimed that the aftermarket oil filters do not seal at the anti-drainback ports on the oil filter mount, causing unfiltered oil into the engine. He also said that aftermarket fuel filters do not have the correct lid in order to bleed out the air correctly.

He did say you could put bio in a 7.3 and it PROBABLY would not cause problems. He said bio gives you less power and less mpg. (I ve not noticed that in mine). I thought it sounded suspect. Anyone here using bio in a 6.0 or 6.4?
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Old 05-20-2009, 09:16 AM
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I agree with his statement about fuel and oil filters on the 6.0. Both were made by Racor and unlicensed, aftermarket copies do allow dirt to bypass. The bio-Diesel warning seems a bit over the top.

I've not used bio-Diesel since it's not available anywhere near me.
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Old 05-20-2009, 12:35 PM
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I can understand the quality issue if not purchased from a reputable source. Here in Cal it is regulated. I have yet to get a bad tank of bio. My testimony is I have over 30k in almost 2 years running on biodiesel in my 6.0 psd. During winter months I blend down to B50 when it gets into the 20's and B80 when it is in the 30's. From mid April to mid Oct I run B100. The only problems I have had is a couple of emergency fuel filter changes when first started using bio. I was getting all the old diesel build up out of the tank. I really don't understand why the manufacturers are so against biodiesel. They must have their hands tied with the oil companies.
I have 72k on the odo and have never even had the egr touched. So I don't believe the egr statement from the rep is valid.
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Old 05-20-2009, 12:44 PM
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Mine's a 7.3, but I think the less mpg and power claim is questionable. Supposedly bio does produce fewer BTU's (97% of diesel?), but I don't notice a difference myself. As far as mileage, if any thing might be slightly better. Maybe it's different with newer motors?
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Old 05-20-2009, 01:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Trent Fliginger View Post
Mine's a 7.3, but I think the less mpg and power claim is questionable. Supposedly bio does produce fewer BTU's (97% of diesel?), but I don't notice a difference myself. As far as mileage, if any thing might be slightly better. Maybe it's different with newer motors?
On my 6.0psd I do notice a little less power. I also get a little less mpg. Around 1 mpg less. I am on the fence of getting an Airdog. Maybe a helper pump might bring the mpg back up? I also thought of getting a tuner to advance the timing. I do believe that these newer motors are very finicky about fuel quality.
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Old 05-20-2009, 05:05 PM
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This doesn't answer the OP's question directly, but is related... I've seen a 1.0-1.5 mpg drop in my 7.3L with B20.
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Old 05-20-2009, 09:12 PM
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I see a 1.0-1.5mpg drop, as well, in my 6.0L. I haven't really noticed any power loss, but I run B20 max since that's all I can get here. Did anyone question why they list B5 as acceptable in the owner's manual since they think it is so bad?
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Old 06-16-2009, 06:45 PM
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I am still very new to this diesel, much less bio. But there is a 'brewer' nearby and I think I can get B20 delivered to the driveway ($2.39/gal).

I think a big part of the 'problem' is the very new diesels have some kind of exhaust burner type of deal that doesn't do well with bio. I think the older ones should be fine. The o rings (and winter) are all that really concern me.
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Old 06-16-2009, 09:44 PM
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Bio has a higher affinity for water than dino which can be a concern if it sits for any length of time or isn't handle properly.
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Old 06-17-2009, 12:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tazo View Post
I really don't understand why the manufacturers are so against biodiesel. They must have their hands tied with the oil companies.
Two major reasons.

1) Until very recently, there was no national standard for biodiesel, as there is for refined diesel. Thus you had a great many variations in quality, even when "properly" prepared. And as we all know, the 6.0 is VERY intolerant when it comes to fuel quality.

2) Some people are STILL confused as to what "biodiesel" means. Some think it's running straight used chicken-fryer oil, complete with bits of burnt chicken. Or french fries. Some think it's ANY vegetable-sourced oil, treated or not. Some (like me) think it's only properly de-esterified VIRGIN oil that meets the new spec.

It's an uphill battle, and one that won't be won (either way) for many years to come.

A couple of minor ones: Biodiesel doesn't like cold weather. If you're north of I-40, as often as not, you'll run into gelling problems without proper fuel treatment. Even south of I-40, it can occasionally get cold enough to be a problem. Biodiesel also picks up contaminants rather readily; much like the OLD OLD (3000 ppm sulfur) diesel we had back before the 1990's. You know, the stuff that'd clean ANYTHING.

I've often wondered what the best way of guaranteeing quality is when purchasing at retail; ask for the test results? ask for the certifications? something else?

-blaine
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Old 06-17-2009, 01:09 AM
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My understanding on not being able to run bio in a 6.4 has to do with the DPF. I believe, and I'm sure someone can correct me if I'm not totally accurate, that during post combustion a small amount of fuel is injected in the combustion chamber so that further burn occurs as it enters the exhaust system. Cleaner exhaust is the desired result.

The problem with biodiesel in this system is that it doesn't completely combust and much of it winds up washing down past the piston rings and into the crankase diluting the oil.

I make my own bio and am currently running B90+ in my 7.3 and I see about 8-10% reduction in mileage and power.(Correlating BTU's as compared to #2) But I figure so what? It has phenomenal lubricity, I'm using a free waste product to make it ( that 'off the grid' feeling), and my truck's plenty powerful enough as it is for my needs.
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Old 06-17-2009, 01:50 AM
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DPF's have their own fuel system. No fuel is added "post combustion" inside the engine or combustion chamber.

-blaine
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Old 06-17-2009, 02:05 AM
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Blaine,

So I guess I misunderstood what I was told. Where on the 6.4 is the fuel being injected? I was under the impression the biggest downside to using bio in the 6.4 was unburned fuel making its way into the crankase.
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Old 06-18-2009, 01:32 AM
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I make and run 100% most of the time in my 6.0 and have been for over 7,000 miles. The only problem I have is a little hard start first thing or if it sits for 8-10 hours on a cool day. I cycle the key twice and it usually starts up fine. It would be nice to figure out why as it doesn't do it on dino diesel but the cost savings overshadows the little bit of inconvience. My truck is also noticably quieter and runs alot smoother. You just have to check each batch for soap and total conversion. My daughters boyfriend says the exhaust smells like tacos.
Dave
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Old 06-18-2009, 01:45 AM
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Dave,

I too, run my own B100 until it dips below 40F.

I wonder if the slight start delay might have something to do with the bio viscosity?
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