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  #16 (permalink)  
Old 04-21-2009, 10:47 AM
Julies Cool F1 Julies Cool F1 is offline
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Not being critical Bill just asking for guidance. Or better, putting the right numbers with the right transmissions.

I understand your statement about the overdrive transmission not being in a Mercury - trivia education - ok. My books is simply titled Ford and Mercurywhich is why I said that.

Click the image to open in full size.

But, the picture of the mid 60 overdrive transmission, shown above again, clearly has a top plate. Now I know for a fact that the overdrive transmission I had in my 55 (which was out of a 63 F-100 and according to your earlier post should be a T-86) had a side plate with the shifters and was configured exactly the same at the 3 speed transmission I posted the second picture of above but with the overdrive unit on the back (and I remember you stating that they didn't just install overdrive units on the back of the 3 speed light duty transmissions earlier). The cover plates were NOT the same on those two overdrive transmissions.

Here are two pictures of overdrive transmissions that are used in our trucks neither of which has a top cover - not at all close to being the same design.

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Name:  T-87 Overdrive Transmission.jpg
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So, if the transmission I pictured from the 66 manual is the T-85N, and you say the T-86 has a top cover as well and is supposed to be installed in the 50s F-Series, then what are the transmissions I have pictured above - One is stock and installed in a 1955 F-100 the other a stock 63 F-100 truck? T-10s maybe? TILT!

The original question I asked was, I guess, what defines a top loader. Is it where the transmission has a top cover plate, or is it called a top loader because the shift mechanism is located on top of the transmission and goes through the floor vs on the column?
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Old 04-21-2009, 10:56 AM
mOROTBREATH mOROTBREATH is offline
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julie-thanks, just what I needed. But one more question, you mentioned the 4 electrical things I need to make the trans opereble......."a solenoid; a governor; a kickdown switch; and a relay"......I would like to ask him if he can make sure that the truck still has these(I guess I could also just ask him if the overdrive opperates, and that would prove he had all 4 things....)but just in case he has no clue what they look like, would you ahppen ton know what to look for?

Man, I thought the engine may be different...typical, maybe I should go and ask on the other forum for those year trucks...Anybody else have any possible knowledge on the similarities of the 223 and the 300?...Update: Yeah, I found this on ebay, and I assume it's a 300...look at those mounts, exactly what angus said, more like a V-8 than my 223...damn...: eBay Motors: Ford : F-100 (item 260393149886 end time Apr-23-09 12:00:46 PDT)

I think he said it's a column shift, but I'm waiting for a reply to my last email. I think I have more problems to worry about now anyways, I think it'd be better to just buy the thing and sell it later. Then buy a T-86 ofr my truck..............Oh right, anyone know where to find one?

Wow, thanks all, your really pulling through for me....again....and again. Thank you so much, I'll be back in a few hours with an update/question.
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  #18 (permalink)  
Old 04-21-2009, 11:50 AM
Julies Cool F1 Julies Cool F1 is offline
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Hi M! (oh sorry m! your "name story" is so funny)

I do know what to look for.

The four components:

Overdrive governor and Overdrive solenoid are physically attached to the transmission.

The governor is attached to the tail end on the right side - see the picture I posted above of the transmission sitting on the floor.

The solenoid is bolted on about mid transmission on the lower left side. You can see the position of it in the same photo above. But more clearly it looks like this:

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The Relay looks very similar to a horn relay, but is slightly larger, has four prongs, and a fuse. It is normally mounted on the firewall in front of the driver. It looks like this:

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The kickdown switch may have different configurations. Most were mounted through the floor board under the gas pedal. But some were firewall mounted and pushed by a rod coming off the carburetor linkage. The floor/gas pedal type looks like this:

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There is also a cable in the cab that mechanically locks out the overdrive.

If the Overdrive is working, then yes, all the components are installed and working.

Just for giggles, here is the OD wiring diagram:

Click the image to open in full size.
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  #19 (permalink)  
Old 04-21-2009, 12:25 PM
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1957/63 and 1964/72 truck parts catalogs show the T-86 with a removable cover on top.

1964/72 truck parts catalog pic shows the T-85 with a removable cover on top.

I listed the part numbers for both of the covers in my previous post...they are different numbers.

I don't have a T-86 around here to look at, but I do have a T-85...as my 1965 F100 has one. It's been in there since the truck was new.

And I know it's original...because I bought the truck new.

One of the pics you posted has T-87 marked on it.

T-87's are a H/D 3 speed manual that were not offered in F100's (F250/350's and P Series Parcel Delivery's only). T-87's were not available with overdrive.

Regardless, a T-85 will NOT fit a 223 engine...no ifs, ands or buts!
----------------------------------------------------------------
215 & 223 I-6 engines are totally different than 240/300's.

For one thing...

215/223's have the intake/exhaust manifolds mounted on the drivers side of the block.

These parts are on the passenger side on 240/300's.

240/300's used the T-85N overdrive, they were not available with T-86's.

From the VIN engine code (4th digit: J), that 1965 F100 on ebay has a 240.

J was used in 1965 only for 240's. A was used from 1966 thru 1974 for 240's.

J was also used thru 1964 for 223's.
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Old 04-21-2009, 03:37 PM
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I'm no expert, but I don't think the T-85 or T-86 were top loaders. I thought they both had solid cases on top and loaded from the side.

As for Julie's other question, as far as what a toploader is... You're both right...The transmissions from the late 30s with the shifter on the top are referred to as Top Loaders, and so are the ones from the 60s (three and four speed models) which have levers on the side but whose gears are accessible from the top, like the first one you posted (the top of the page says 6-4 Overdrive Transmissions). The side loading ones are like the second diagram. At least, that's how I think it works.

Well, now I don't know...I just read Numberdummy's latest post with the top cover part numbers and now I'm confused. BTW, this is a major reason some people don't like Fords. I tend to like some of the constant surprises, but most "darksiders" do not. Another example is the FE denomination...ask 3 people what it means and get 3 different answers.
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  #21 (permalink)  
Old 04-21-2009, 04:56 PM
Julies Cool F1 Julies Cool F1 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NumberDummy View Post
1957/63 and 1964/72 truck parts catalogs show the T-86 with a removable cover on top.

1964/72 truck parts catalog pic shows the T-85 with a removable cover on top.

I listed the part numbers for both of the covers in my previous post...they are different numbers.

I don't have a T-86 around here to look at, but I do have a T-85...as my 1965 F100 has one. It's been in there since the truck was new.

And I know it's original...because I bought the truck new.

One of the pics you posted has T-87 marked on it.

T-87's are a H/D 3 speed manual that were not offered in F100's (F250/350's and P Series Parcel Delivery's only). T-87's were not available with overdrive.

Regardless, a T-85 will NOT fit a 223 engine...no ifs, ands or buts!
----------------------------------------------------------------
215 & 223 I-6 engines are totally different than 240/300's.

For one thing...

215/223's have the intake/exhaust manifolds mounted on the drivers side of the block.

These parts are on the passenger side on 240/300's.

240/300's used the T-85N overdrive, they were not available with T-86's.

From the VIN engine code (4th digit: J), that 1965 F100 on ebay has a 240.

J was used in 1965 only for 240's. A was used from 1966 thru 1974 for 240's.

J was also used thru 1964 for 223's.
Ok so,

We've got numbers and more numbers and applications and applications, but not tied together

We all know a T-85 looks like...we all agree that it's the one one in the exploded drawing I posted.

And I know that the transmission in the picture is not a T-87 you told me that the last time I posted that picture, but I can't change it. That's irrelevant.

I believe that the transmission I have pictured on the floor and mounted behind the green engine is the transmission that would go in his 56 F-100 truck (even if it's a T-5000) especially since it is in a 53 Ford F-100 mounted behind a 223!!!!! in the picture. It DOES NOT have a top cover, it has a side cover. So if the two transmissions pictured aren't T-86s which is what you said has to go on that vehicle, and in that picture IS on THAT vehicle behind THAT ENGINE, then what transmission is it? Something with our data is WRONG I think!
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  #22 (permalink)  
Old 04-21-2009, 05:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Julies Cool F1 View Post
Ok so,

We've got numbers and more numbers and applications and applications, but not tied together

We all know a T-85 looks like...we all agree that it's the one one in the exploded drawing I posted.

And I know that the transmission in the picture is not a T-87 you told me that the last time I posted that picture, but I can't change it. That's irrelevant.

I believe that the transmission I have pictured on the floor and mounted behind the green engine is the transmission that would go in his 56 F-100 truck (even if it's a T-5000) especially since it is in a 53 Ford F-100 mounted behind a 223!!!!! in the picture. It DOES NOT have a top cover, it has a side cover. So if the two transmissions pictured aren't T-86s which is what you said has to go on that vehicle, and in that picture IS on THAT vehicle behind THAT ENGINE, then what transmission is it? Something with our data is WRONG I think!
I have no clue what that O/D trans is = = After searching (and missing my afternoon TV show ), it's from a 55/56 T-Bird...see below.

From the 1948/56 Ford Truck Parts Catalog (which I wish you had!).

1956 F100 Borg Warner 3 Speed Overdrive / Parts Lists #32 (223 I-6); #33 (272 Y-8)

TAAA7222A .. COVER, GEAR HOUSING!

This same cover was also used 1953/55.

So...Julie...since the 1953/56's used a top cover, what did you say that trans was from again?

Does it have any ID numbers or case markings anywhere?

EDIT...brb...gonna look in my 1949/59 car parts catalog. RE-EDIT: 1955/56 THUNDERBIRD O/D TRANS = NO COVER!

btw: You can buy a CD copy of this parts catalog from hipoparts.com for less than 25 bucks.

Or....waltz on over to C&G in beautiful downtown Escondido...and have a look in their parts catalog.

NOTE: If they have the 1949/59 car parts catalog....take a gander at page 200: 1955/56 T-B O/D trans.
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  #23 (permalink)  
Old 04-21-2009, 06:53 PM
Julies Cool F1 Julies Cool F1 is offline
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I have the 48-56 truck parts catalogue Bill. And it doesn't designate the transmissions by number - T-86, etc, and you know it.

And I don't need numbers on it to look at a picture and see that it is installed on the back of a 223 in a 53-55 F-100. And no Bill I didn't say the 53-56 used a top cover - you said that. I said it didn't. And I said that transmission I had pictured I personally took out of a 63 Ford F-100 in 1980.

I know for a fact that the transmission I have pictured is the correct overdrive transmission - you can call it whatever you want.

And just to back it up, here is an add from a transmission shop for a 1954 Ford Overdrive Transmission. Look at the add! It's not C&G Ford Parts it is a Transmission shop that rebuilds these transmissions. It has a side cover and is EXACTLY the same as the transmission I posted in the pictures. You said 54 passenger cars used a T-86 see post #3

1954 Ford Fairlane Victoria Transmission and Drivetrain Manual Transmissions and Parts for sale. Auto Parts. Used car parts, classic car parts, parts dealers and more

I'm not trying to pick on you, but it's just not jiving this time Bill I'm sorry to say. I think this is one of those very rare instances where an erroneous piece of line art or listing got past Fords Technical Writer Editors.

And OBTW - Guys, note the price - ouch!

Edit Note: You missed Judge Judy?!?!? Holy Carp we're all in trouble now!
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Old 04-21-2009, 07:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Julies Cool F1 View Post
I have the 48-56 truck parts catalogue Bill. And it doesn't designate the transmissions by number - T-86, etc, and you know it.

And I don't need numbers on it to look at a picture and see that it is installed on the back of a 223 in a 53-55 F-100. And no Bill I didn't say the 53-56 used a top cover - you said that. I said it didn't. And I said that transmission I had pictured I personally took out of a 63 Ford F-100 in 1980. 17 years later, what does that prove?

I know for a fact that the transmission I have pictured is the correct overdrive transmission - you can call it whatever you want.

And just to back it up, here is an add from a transmission shop for a 1954 Ford Overdrive Transmission. Look at the add! It's not C&G Ford Parts it is a Transmission shop that rebuilds these transmissions. It has a side cover and is EXACTLY the same as the transmission I posted in the pictures. You said 54 passenger cars used a T-86 see post #3

1954 Ford Fairlane Victoria Transmission and Drivetrain Manual Transmissions and Parts for sale. Auto Parts. Used car parts, classic car parts, parts dealers and more

I'm not trying to pick on you, but it's just not jiving this time Bill I'm sorry to say. I think this is one of those very rare instances where an erroneous piece of line art or listing got past Fords Technical Writer Editors.

And OBTW - Guys, note the price - ouch!

Edit Note: You missed Judge Judy?!?!? Holy Carp we're all in trouble now!
I went by the parts catalog parts lists to come up with those various top cover part numbers.

I would never go by illustrations only, because Ford used the same drawings for years.

You may have removed that O/D from a 1963 F100...but how do you know it's the original transmission?

According the parts catalog part list for 1961/64...it is not...because it has a cover on top.

The O/D transmission used on 1955/56 T-Birds does not have a cover on top...and that's the bottom line.

As it's the only O/D trans used from 1953 thru 1972 that does not have a cover.

You can argue all you want to. To prove your point...find one other O/D used from 1953 thru 1972 besides the 55/56 Bird O/D that has no cover.

I'll save you the trouble...there isn't one. I looked at every O/D parts list from 1953 thru 1972.

The only one that does not list a 7222 cover is that Bird O/D.

And...that's the same trans that 17 year old 1963 F100 had in it. It was not original to that truck.
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Old 04-22-2009, 01:21 AM
Julies Cool F1 Julies Cool F1 is offline
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Bill we don't have to argue about it at all. The point has been proven a number of times. For perhaps the first time in 22K posts, your facts just don't add up on this - period.

The add I posted had a 54 overdrive transmission listed for sale by a transmission shop that had the side cover - not a top cover - proof positive.

You said prove it post one, it was already there. Try opening up the add and looking at it. Undeniable.

It's exactly the same transmission in the pictures of the F-100 with the green 223 engine, and exactly the same transmission I personally pulled out of the 63 Ford F-100 that was the original transmission - I was related to the owner. The 63 F-100 had a T-86 according to your post.

Tell ya what I'll do. I'll write a letter to Borg Warner and see if we can't get some pictures from them and save them for the next time this comes up.

You guys can all believe whatever you want. Getting back to the original intent of the post, as I said in my initial reply, the two transmissions are not interchangeable.
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Old 04-23-2009, 11:48 AM
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Question

Were you two married to each other at some point, and now just like to argue with each other? This was a fun tennis match to watch.

So bottom line. If you want a 4-speed Manual Transmission that will mate up to a I-6 223 Ford engine in a 1953-1955 F-series truck, what is the correct make and model of Trany do you need to get so that you can use a floor shifter and get rid of the column shifter?
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Old 04-23-2009, 02:02 PM
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The T-85/T-86 never had and never will have a top cover.
We have been over the miss ID of transmissions in the early Ford Parts Catalogs before.
It's time someone made some pen & ink changes to their's.
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Old 04-23-2009, 05:44 PM
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Sorry the above should read T-85/T-89.
(I figured I'd better change that before Bill had an accident all over himself.)
Additional info:
http://www.northtexasamc.com/pdf/HMM...nsmissions.pdf
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Old 04-23-2009, 09:47 PM
Julies Cool F1 Julies Cool F1 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Glockem45 View Post
Were you two married to each other at some point, and now just like to argue with each other? This was a fun tennis match to watch.

So bottom line. If you want a 4-speed Manual Transmission that will mate up to a I-6 223 Ford engine in a 1953-1955 F-series truck, what is the correct make and model of Trany do you need to get so that you can use a floor shifter and get rid of the column shifter?
Oh and now you want 4 speed info - you little rabble rouser! Well daddy and I may talk - that happens.............Go to your room!

Quote:
Originally Posted by 4tl8ford View Post
The T-85/T-86 never had and never will have a top cover.
We have been over the miss ID of transmissions in the early Ford Parts Catalogs before.
It's time someone made some pen & ink changes to their's.
THANK YOU!!!!!!!

And also, thank you for your post about the "3 spd light duty" being matched up with the Borg Warner R-10 overdrive earlier as well.
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Old 04-23-2009, 10:59 PM
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Sounds like the Lady of the house has spoken. The only thing to do now is say "Yes Maam, You're right". BTW Miss Julie my 52 cranks all by itself now. Thank You again for the for the diagrams.
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Old 04-23-2009, 10:59 PM
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