A/C repair, can i do it or do i need a shops help?

[DCRB]

so last summer my a/c went out, and through careful diagnostics i was able to conclude that it was because the hose pictured below had been rubbing on my steering rack and had finally worn through and let all my precious r12 out into the air (gasp!!). well i'd like to get that fixed for this summer (i've decided to start fixing up my van to make it the best darn aero on the block) and this is one of the needed repairs. so, what do i need to replace this line? special tools? hopes and dreams? i did some searching and couldn't find anything exactly, although it looks like i'll need to convince the shop that i take it to to get it evacuated and re charged to fill it up properly, and i may have to install a small pusher fan for the condensor. oh and new o rings are a must picture thanks to rock auto. thanks in advance to all you fellow grease monkee's and mechanics!

[Bear River]

You will need the help of a shop unless you have an AC manifold gauge set, and a deep cycle vacuum pump (not the compressor powered type, but a real pump). You should also replace the orfice tube and the accumulator is a must, it contains a desiccant drier material which is not R-134a compatible, and it likely saturated due to the fact that atmospheric air can get into your system.

If you let the shop supply the parts, even though you pay a little bit more, you get a warranty.

So plan on spending even more on parts, and either getting your own equipment, or paying someone to install the parts.

[dave boley]

I do a lot of A/C work and I am licensed to work with the different refrigerants. You will most likely have a problem buying R-12 if you don't have the certification for it. I have no idea what your experience is in this particular area is but if you have done auto A/C work before, you might want to tackle the job. If you are up to the challenge and have the proper tools and equipment, it is worth the effort to convert to the newer R-134 refrigerant. it can be bought without the certification required for buying R-12 and it is a lot cheaper. You have to remove the oil from the system and replace it with the oil required for use with the R-134.

As already suggested, you will need a good vacuum pump. If you don't have one you can get a very reasonably priced good one at HF now. I normally don't recommesn HF for this sort of thing but I have looked at their units and I am considering buying one as mine is at least 30 years old and I have had a few issues with the motor I have had to repair.

If you convert to R-134 you will find that the fittings are different than systems that use R-12. You can buy adapters that can be instaled on the vehicle. The gauge sets they sell now have adapters to fit either type system. When I convert to R-134 I keep the old fittings because I have had problem with adapter fittings leaking.

One other very important thing to remember is that the compressors they have been using for the last twenty years or so are very suceptable to damage by foreign contaminants. It is absolutley imperative that the system be cleansed and all such matter removed. This is an area that would probably be best handled by a profesional shop but even some of them don't know how to do it. I have seen brand new compressors go bad in less than a week due to contaminants in the system. The work requires flushing the system with a solvent and then dryiing it and flushing with nitrogen. This operation is best done with each component individualy All filter/driers and accumulators should be replaced and so should the orifice.

What this comes down to is you can take your chances doing your own work or you can take it to a professional and let them do it for big bucks. In the later case you need to get a guarantee so that if they screw it up, they have to fix it. That one part you have shown only replaces the damaged part. Chances are you have a contaminated system. If it isn't cleaned out, you will forever have problems. Believe me, I've been there, done that and got the T-shirt.

Just a word of warning, be prepaired to sell your first born or get a second mortgage because the work is intensive and it will cost you. This is one reason why I do my own work but the experience I have, came at a high price in equipment and tuition for the school of hard knocks.

Good luck Man...

[lsrx101]

Everything dave mentioned is pretty much on the mark. The only exception I will make is if the van has rear AC.
If so, it is not a very good candidate for R134a conversion.
The problem is with the smallish condenser supporting the dual system. You can change the metering devices (both are orifice tubes, IIRC) and install a parallel flow condenser, but you will spend much more on the modifications than staying with R12. Without the condenser mod, the performance with R134a will be marginal at the very best.

Check out the DIY "starter kits" at Automotive Air Conditioning Parts & Equipment - ACKITS.COM. That's about what it takes to get started repairing your AC. There are cheaper tools available, but the quality quickly starts to suffer. The cost of the proper tools will outstrip the savings of a DIY repair on the first vehicle. When you realize the savings will be on the second vehicle and all subsequent repairs.
If you are totally new to MVAC, I suggest spending some time at Automotive AC Information Forum - ACKITS.COM . It's a grerat forum for DIYers.
I'm not affiliated with AMA, I'm just a satisfied customer.

[dave boley]

Originally Posted by lsrx101

Everything dave mentioned is pretty much on the mark. The only exception I will make is if the van has rear AC.
If so, it is not a very good candidate for R134a conversion.
The problem is with the smallish condenser supporting the dual system. You can change the metering devices (both are orifice tubes, IIRC) and install a parallel flow condenser, but you will spend much more on the modifications than staying with R12. Without the condenser mod, the performance with R134a will be marginal at the very best.

That's an interesting point... I have never converted a dual system. I was under the impression that the simularities were close enough in the two refrigerants that the most that would be needed would be an orifice size change which I have had success with so far in single systems.

I might suggest trying to find a later model with dual air that used the R-134a refrigerant. Apparently they made appropriate changes that compensated for the R-134a which was mandatory to use after '93. The Aero I'm using as a donor for one of my projects is a '97 with dual air. I will have to compare it with earlier models and see if there is much difference in condensor coil sizes. It would ess to be a lot simpler to install a larger condensor than to try and parallel or aseries two of them.

I am glad you pointed this out though.

Later Man...

[lsrx101]

Originally Posted by dave boley

That's an interesting point... I have never converted a dual system. I was under the impression that the simularities were close enough in the two refrigerants that the most that would be needed would be an orifice size change which I have had success with so far in single systems.

I might suggest trying to find a later model with dual air that used the R-134a refrigerant. Apparently they made appropriate changes that compensated for the R-134a which was mandatory to use after '93. The Aero I'm using as a donor for one of my projects is a '97 with dual air. I will have to compare it with earlier models and see if there is much difference in condensor coil sizes. It would ess to be a lot simpler to install a larger condensor than to try and parallel or aseries two of them.

I am glad you pointed this out though.

Later Man...

You would have to swap the entire system from a later van. The fittings, etc on most parts were made specifically so that parts could not be interchanged.
Most dual systems were rather marginal to begin with and the vehicles tend to have a large cabin area, that's why they don't convert well.

A parallel flow condenser is a style of condenser made especially for use in R134a systems. It is constructed much like a radiator, header at each end and tubes across. Each tube has 3-4 internal passages.
Older R-12 piccolo or tube and fin condensers don't transfer heat as well, thus the conversion issues on some vehicles.
It is possible to adapt a later P-flow condenser, but new discharge and liquid lines usually have to be fabricated to mate to the fittings. Conversely, the old fittings can be welded onto the new condenser. It's a lot of work and $$ for marginal return.
If an older dual system is repaired correctly, a $60-80 investment in R-12 is a much better value over the life of the system.

The price of R12 has dropped greatly as the demand has decreased. Remember, the newest R12 cars are now 16 years old and many of them have been converted or not repaired at all.
For $25 you can take the open book certification test and buy all of the R12 you want. I've seen it as low as $15/lb, it's hovering at about $18-22/lb in bulk right now. The 12-16 oz cans are still higher.

BTW. I'm really digging your Scoobygator project. That's sweet!

[dave boley]

Originally Posted by lsrx101

You would have to swap the entire system from a later van. The fittings, etc on most parts were made specifically so that parts could not be interchanged.
Most dual systems were rather marginal to begin with and the vehicles tend to have a large cabin area, that's why they don't convert well.

A parallel flow condenser is a style of condenser made especially for use in R134a systems. It is constructed much like a radiator, header at each end and tubes across. Each tube has 3-4 internal passages.
Older R-12 piccolo or tube and fin condensers don't transfer heat as well, thus the conversion issues on some vehicles.
It is possible to adapt a later P-flow condenser, but new discharge and liquid lines usually have to be fabricated to mate to the fittings. Conversely, the old fittings can be welded onto the new condenser. It's a lot of work and $$ for marginal return.
If an older dual system is repaired correctly, a $60-80 investment in R-12 is a much better value over the life of the system.

The price of R12 has dropped greatly as the demand has decreased. Remember, the newest R12 cars are now 16 years old and many of them have been converted or not repaired at all.
For $25 you can take the open book certification test and buy all of the R12 you want. I've seen it as low as $15/lb, it's hovering at about $18-22/lb in bulk right now. The 12-16 oz cans are still higher.

BTW. I'm really digging your Scoobygator project. That's sweet!

This is all very interesting and I'm glad you brought it up. I'm sure that some of that info will come in handy sometime. I have an E350 LWB diesel cargo van that I converted some time ago when the R-12 was sky high in price. It works very well and the only change I made was with the orifice size. I don't recall for sure now wweter I went bigger or smaller as it has been about six years ago when I did the conversion. I think it was one step larger. I suppose the van being a diesel and having come equipped with lines to the rear for a second unit, it may well have had a larger condensor coil to begin with. It was supposed to be made into an ambulance but the buyer canceled the order and I got a deal because I bought two of them. I do have the certification to buy the R-12. I got it shortly after they made the ruling. the big stinker for me is the games you have to play regarding reclaimaition and storage. I have one of the reclaimation units but I don't like the fact that you gotta pay to get the containers and then pay to get rid of the stuff which they are actually reclaiming and selling again. Talk about a racket...

Thanks for the kind words about the Scoobygator. I am trying to get it finished to sell. I have one person claiming he wants it when it is finished to use on his farm. I have no real need for it as I live on a half acre lot with neighbors on both sides. For me the challenge was to build it. As you know from looking around my website, I now have other fish to fry.

I see you are up in the Loraine area. Back in 1990 I worked on a job up there at the steel mill. What a hellhole... It was Summer and I was working in a very hot area.

Later Man...

[aerocolorado]

Just to be the fly in the ointment. As a novice A/C person, I converted my dual air system to r134a using a crummy compressor/vacuum pump from Harbor Freight and the A/C works great. This was over 5 years ago and it still performs well. There is a drop in performance when both systems are in operation but will still cool adequately on the highway to the point the rear passengers ask to have the A/C turned off.

This is not to say it was easy. I read a lot and corresponded on some of the A/C forums sponsored by Arizona Air. My van suffered Black Death so I knew I was in for a major teardown and component replacement.

Replacing the mechanical parts was pretty straightforward. Getting to some of the o-rings requires a bit of ingenuity, but be can be done. I bit the bullet and replaced nearly everything but the front/rear evaporators. I used new orifice tubes in their original sizes. The trickiest part of all is not knowing how to read the gauges. Its really easy to under/overfill the system. This is where the pros can really help you. A bad fan clutch caused me much grief in trying to dial in the correct amount of coolant, so be forwarned about that. My recommendation in your case is to do all the mechanical work and let a shop deal with the delicate part of adding r134a. I had a pretty extensive posting on my experience. Try a search for more details.

[lsrx101]

Originally Posted by dave boley

This is all very interesting and I'm glad you brought it up. I'm sure that some of that info will come in handy sometime. I have an E350 LWB diesel cargo van that I converted some time ago when the R-12 was sky high in price. It works very well and the only change I made was with the orifice size. I don't recall for sure now wweter I went bigger or smaller as it has been about six years ago when I did the conversion. I think it was one step larger. I suppose the van being a diesel and having come equipped with lines to the rear for a second unit, it may well have had a larger condensor coil to begin with. It was supposed to be made into an ambulance but the buyer canceled the order and I got a deal because I bought two of them. I do have the certification to buy the R-12. I got it shortly after they made the ruling. the big stinker for me is the games you have to play regarding reclaimaition and storage. I have one of the reclaimation units but I don't like the fact that you gotta pay to get the containers and then pay to get rid of the stuff which they are actually reclaiming and selling again. Talk about a racket...

Thanks for the kind words about the Scoobygator. I am trying to get it finished to sell. I have one person claiming he wants it when it is finished to use on his farm. I have no real need for it as I live on a half acre lot with neighbors on both sides. For me the challenge was to build it. As you know from looking around my website, I now have other fish to fry.

I see you are up in the Loraine area. Back in 1990 I worked on a job up there at the steel mill. What a hellhole... It was Summer and I was working in a very hot area.

Later Man...

My apologies for the thread hijack DCRB. Dave makes a lot of good points about AC systems, so keep reading anyway. They may help with your repair if you decide to DIY.

Dave, Those big vans like yours usually convert well if they are a single system. When a rear unit is added to the mix, the result is usually marginal especially at idle or low speeds. Changing the orifice size can help along with adjusting the cycling switch down about 5 psi. With the Diesel you have that massive fan moving a ton of air over the condenser, so that helped with your conversion. That E-350 has got to be a real monster!!
When I mentioned the certification, I wasn't referring to you specifically. I had a hunch that you may have already had it because you mentioned doing a lot of AC work. That was more of a general "anyone can..." statement.

I have a Robinair R12 recovery/recycle machine, but I don't use it much. ($200 on Ebay!! You just have to watch, lots of them have ingested AC sealer. That crap is bad news.) Most of the R12 systems that I do come in completely empty for one reason or another. I recycled a full tank of R12 for a friend who reclaims it as a side business, but I haven't accumulated enough in 2 years to recycle myself. I don't test repaired systems with R12, though.
Here's a trick that you may find useful if you have R134a recovery equipment available:
I use BVA 100 Ester oil in all R12 systems (it actually lubes a bit better than the old mineral oil). With that, I can leak check and pretty much test the operation of the system with cheaper R134a. When all is as it should be, I recover the R134a, evacuate fully and charge with R12. The Ester oil plays (imisces?) well with both refrigerants. R12 is comparatively "cheap" these days, but why take chances with a finite resource.

Sir, I would offer to buy the Scoobygator in a heartbeat if I could afford it. That slick project of yours is just too cool for words. I wish I had your fabricating skill and patience.

BTW, Yep, that steel mill is a total hellhole IMO but it's a shadow of it's former self, even back in 1990. It supported much of the economy here in Lorain County for almost 100 years making steel and rolling seamless pipe. My Dad worked there for 25+ years before he had a (Thankfully minor) stroke in the early 90s. Growing up, half of the working age people I knew worked "at the Mill". (The other half seemed to work at the Ford Lorain Assembly Plant, where your E-Van was born.) I worked for about 4 months in a "rod mill" over in Cleveland back in the 80s. Naaah! Not for me but thanks for the opportunity!

Later Dude.

[lsrx101]

Originally Posted by aerocolorado

Just to be the fly in the ointment. As a novice A/C person, I converted my dual air system to r134a using a crummy compressor/vacuum pump from Harbor Freight and the A/C works great. This was over 5 years ago and it still performs well. There is a drop in performance when both systems are in operation but will still cool adequately on the highway to the point the rear passengers ask to have the A/C turned off.

This is not to say it was easy. I read a lot and corresponded on some of the A/C forums sponsored by Arizona Air. My van suffered Black Death so I knew I was in for a major teardown and component replacement.

Replacing the mechanical parts was pretty straightforward. Getting to some of the o-rings requires a bit of ingenuity, but be can be done. I bit the bullet and replaced nearly everything but the front/rear evaporators. I used new orifice tubes in their original sizes. The trickiest part of all is not knowing how to read the gauges. Its really easy to under/overfill the system. This is where the pros can really help you. A bad fan clutch caused me much grief in trying to dial in the correct amount of coolant, so be forwarned about that. My recommendation in your case is to do all the mechanical work and let a shop deal with the delicate part of adding r134a. I had a pretty extensive posting on my experience. Try a search for more details.

No fly in the ointment.
Black Death is NASTY!!! regardless of the vehicle. I feel for you since you own an Aerostar with dual AC! That repair certainly wasn't inexpensive even DIY!! I had forgotten that the FX-15 (Black Death) compressor was used on on the Aero's.
I'm glad R134a works good for you, it can with certain driving patterns. On the highway it will usually be just fine but, in town at low speeds with a dual system is where conversion usually falls short. It usually wheezes out, especially with a dark color vehicle (sun load).

Your comments about overfilling/underfilling and reading the gauges are right on the mark. Interpreting gauge readings takes some practice, as does "knowing" when the system is fully charged. It sounds like you did some great homework on fixing your AC.
As a forum member, I'm glad you found Automotive AC Information Forum - ACKITS.COM helpful

It sounds like you also got smacked by your old fan clutch, double ouch!!!
As you found out, the fan clutch is probably the most overlooked and misunderstood part of the cooling system. Most especially as it pertains to the AC system.
I'm glad you're chillin' dude. After all of that, you deserve it even 5 years later.

[DCRB]

WOW i didn't expect to come back to such intense amounts of information!!

to answer a few questions:

I am always willing to learn. i'd rather have to take a few days to start/finish something on my car, and find other means of transportation while waiting for the job to finish. i want it done RIGHT the first time, by someone who knows what they're doing. i think i can tackle the job, if i have the right tools. at least i know i can replace the broken parts. i'm also sure that i can properly recharge my system. the thing i know i probably can't do is evacuate and clean out my system.

i don't normaly trust a shop working on my van, i do pretty much all the work my self... one reason why i am this way: i took my van to a reputable shop (hint hint, they're famous for mufflers and brakes) and had them give my car an alignment, as it pulled severly to the right. well way too long later i get the car back, the steering wheel is 45* off from strait, it still pulls to the right, and i'm told i need to remove my steering wheel and fix it. i take the said van to my local Comunity college, and after watching one of the ford students do several alignments, i re did the alignment, and it has held waaaaaaaay longer than any shop has been able to do for me.

edit: my aero has dual ac/heat...

my point is that while i do want the pro's to do it, i don't want to be in and out of the shop a million times cuz "something" keeps going wrong with the a/c system. with that said, does anyone know any GOOD ac shops in the Portland/Vancouver area? i think i should atleast start w a price quote... oh and where's this ac certification site at?

[lsrx101]

[quote=DCRB;
edit: my aero has dual ac/heat...

my point is that while i do want the pro's to do it, i don't want to be in and out of the shop a million times cuz "something" keeps going wrong with the a/c system. with that said, does anyone know any GOOD ac shops in the Portland/Vancouver area? i think i should atleast start w a price quote... oh and where's this ac certification site at?[/quote]

Hmmm, how comfortable are you with doing repairs yourself?
I can't recommend any shops in your area, but an "off the cuff" estimate for a shop is about $1500-2500 USD including parts and labor.
That hose assembly in your first post is pricy to begin with and, being mostly the lowest point in the AC system, it leaked much of the system oil out along with the refrigerant.
There is no oil "dipstick" in the AC system, so the whole system needs to be flushed entirely and the proper amount of oil added back along with replacement of the accumulator and orifice tube (s).
(Any thorough repair on a vehicle that age will also include replacement of O-rings in all of the line fittings and the compressor manifold connection). Flushing the system is quite labor intensive, as all metering, filtering, and drying devices need to be removed before flushing and replaced with new.

At this point, you really want to s***can the original FX-15 compresor (if still equipped) even if it's still working. That compressor is A TOTAL SYSTEM REPLACEMENT JUST WAITING TO HAPPEN!! Even after the extensive repair mentioned above, if the compressor fails later, and it will, you are out every single dime you spent previously and every component in the system except the evaporators will need to be replaced (again). See aerocolorado's post where he mentions "Black Death" It's really really nasty!!
All replacement Ford compressors are now Ford FS-10 (10Px-15C Nippondenso) as far as I know. Nobody remans FX-15s AFAIK, mainly because there's no rebuildable cores left to rebuild. The FS-10 does not lead to "Black Death" if it happens to fail.

[dave boley]

Oh the black death... Yep, been there, done that... That was where all my troubles with the E-350 started. The dealer had to do some recall work and instead of just laying bask the compressor the proke the system and contaminated it. That is what led to having to install several compressors and ultimately the thorough flushing out of the entire system as well as replacing all the filters and the accumulator. I also ended up replacing the evap coil. What a lot of fun that was.

lsrx101,
Yeah, the old E-350 is a brute but at 16 years and 256K it's starting to show signs of age and wear. Not only was in born in that plant but it has been back there on several occasions when I was using it for expedited frieght contract work. We mainly did short loads for GM, Ford and Chrysler. In the past we have had two T-Birds made up there too, a '94 and '95. The van still has a balsck death compressor in it. They seem to work fine if the system is clean but any conatmination at all will start to deteriorate the vanes and that is when the black death starts. Apparently they found s different composite material for the compressors that replased them. Ford had a deal where they used to give a lifetime guarantee on the remands and I mjust have gone through ten of them. Our '95 Explorer still has one but it seems to be holding up good.

The Scoobygator was eyed and test fitted for the guy that has first dibs on it today. It's his for $8,500.00 if he wants it. So far he is stiil wanting it. I just need to get moving and get it done. I need the money and it is in the way. It's starting to bore me now as all the challenges have been met and now it's just work to finish it.

Later Folks...

[DCRB]

say WHAT??? dang, for that kind of money i could buy annother aero... or three... w working ac... but i am quite partial to my van... perhaps i can go ONE more summer w/o ac... my girls car has ac, and i have a civic w ac... meh i think i can wait... i do all the repairs my self on my van... unless it's something serious like a transmission going out or the rear end blowing up, i either can do it, have done it or am learning how to do it (speaking of which my aero's getting new front brake pads installed on tuesday or wednesday). any ways what's this black death that ya'll speak of? does it have something to do w the compressor randomly seizing up and destroying the serpintine belt in the prosess? if so, my dad's 93 3.0l did that... (which sucks cuz it's the WHOLE reason why he bought the car in the first place)

so with that said, i NEED to know exactly what all i'll need to replace in order to get my ac running. i also want it fixed so my defroster doesnt take 5 hours (ok more like 20 mins) to defrost my window

[lsrx101]

Those numbers might be a little high, I was thinking of a black death compressor failure. When that happens, every part of the system has to be replaced except the evaporators. Very pricy.
In your case, $1000-1800 at a shop would not be out of line. To offer any type of warranty, a shop would not cut any corners. A proper AC repair is not "cheap" and the dual system adds to the price. Much of the cost is labor. Here's a rundown of the minimum that I would do for a customer and put my name on the repair:
-Replace the damaged line set
-Replace the FX-15 compressor with a new FS-10 No one will warranty a used FX-15.
-Replace the accumulator It's a wear item, much like an oil filter.
-Replace both orifice tubes (I think the Aero rear system uses an o-tube instead of an expansion valve)
-Solvent flush the entire system to remove the old oil. This must be done to get the correct oil level and remove contamination. It requires disconnecting most of the lines and fittings to flush parts individually. Very labor intensive and time consuming.
-Replace the orings in ALL of the line fittings. This is mainly due to age and the possibility of future failure. You'd be really PO'd at the shop if you paid $$$ to have all of this work done and the system failed in a month due to a 10 cent o-ring.
-Add the proper amount of oil to the system. This is extremely important. Without a "dipstick" flushing is the only way to get the proper oil level.
-Evacuate and recharge with R-12. Although the price of R12 has dropped, many shops bought their current stock when the price was up in the stratosphere. They will charge accordingly, possibly up to $100/lb.

As was mentioned, you could convert to R134a and save the cost of R12. The "prep" work is all the same regardless of refrigerant. If you live in a very hot area (American Southwest, etc) or the van is a dark color you probably won't be happy with the conversion.

You will find that once the AC is working the Defroster will also work much better. The AC runs on Defrost to dehumidify the air.

Black Death is an internal failure that overheats the compressor oil and mixes it with Teflon shavings from the failing compressor. It coats the inside of the entire system with contamination that is almost impossible to remove. Here's an article:What is Black Death?

Good Luck