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need higher temp on water heater.

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Old 02-09-2009, 03:53 PM
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need higher temp on water heater.

Just looking for suggestions as to the best way to get our water heater up to 200 degrees. The thermostat that is on there only goes to 155, and the hottest that I have got it up to is 150. We are at about 3500 ft, so I figure with altitude and the slight vacuum, 200 should be good for boiling off water. Evidently we didn't quite get enough water out on the first batch, had a slightly cloudy 27/3 test.(also may have used too much methanol, 22%). Our water heater is running on 220.

fabman suggested using a oven thermostat, but after asking around today, most are wired 110? What is the cheapest way to go about this? Would it work if we wired in some kind of bypass for the initial de-watering?

thanks
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Old 02-09-2009, 06:48 PM
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I don't know who you've been talking to, but I have never seen a oven thermostat that was wired with anything but 240 VAC.............
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Old 02-09-2009, 07:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fabmandelux View Post
I don't know who you've been talking to, but I have never seen a oven thermostat that was wired with anything but 240 VAC.............
Any suggestion as to a good one to get? Gramling recommends temp be raised in the processor to 90C, and run till there is no more distillate. Hopefully this will get rid of any remaining water in suspension.
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Old 02-10-2009, 08:45 AM
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I used a thermostat from an boiler style furnace on my appleseed style cooker, but heat my oil in a drum to get rid of water instead of my cooker.

I second what fabman said about the oven thermostat, I've never seen one that wasn't 240V
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Old 02-10-2009, 03:28 PM
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Originally Posted by Trent Fliginger View Post
Any suggestion as to a good one to get? Gramling recommends temp be raised in the processor to 90C, and run till there is no more distillate. Hopefully this will get rid of any remaining water in suspension.
I didn't buy a new one. I just went to my local appliance repair, and they let me "rob" one off a junker........I'm cheap!
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Old 02-10-2009, 10:59 PM
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Check Grainger. I have a salvaged 80 gal 'boiler'. It was 3 phase/480v and had (9) 6000 watt elements in it!! Its t-stat goes to 180.

I'm interested in what ya find (haven't made time to look yet) because I'd like a t-stat that goes to 190-200 to use in methanol recovery still...

Thought about making a spacer/dampener of some sort to 'trick' a regular element.

I have used several 240v t-stats at 110v w/no problems. We often use water heaters to heat and settle VO for dewatering and use 110v and only lower element to reduce the convection (kinda counters the 'settling part').
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Old 02-10-2009, 11:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Trent Fliginger View Post
Any suggestion as to a good one to get? Gramling recommends temp be raised in the processor to 90C, and run till there is no more distillate. Hopefully this will get rid of any remaining water in suspension.
I'm not sure that much heat is required. The BioPro 190 has an 'air drying' stage where it heats the fuel and stirs it while leaving the lid off the processor - I'm sure it is nowhere near that hot!

The more heat you add during and after processing, the greater the chances of increasing the rate of polymerization. FWIW, the reason no 'commercial' bio-d still meets the ASTM standard 'at the pump', is due to the 'stability' portion of the standard. All VO begins to break down or polymerize as soon as it is extracted. The main culprits for enhancing this natural reaction include heat, exposure to oxygen, oxidants (primarilly copper and steel) and time. Does not take them all to get the reaction, but the more of any of these - the faster it happens...

Also, polymerization is main reason why no OE recommends higher than B5. Bosch issued a report a while back that indicated poly was reason for IP failures.
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Old 02-11-2009, 02:25 AM
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Heating the WVO to the boiling point of water BEFORE reacting to remove excess water is NOT a problem. After all, the oil is usually at about 350 deg when it is used for cooking!
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Old 02-11-2009, 08:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fabmandelux View Post
Heating the WVO to the boiling point of water BEFORE reacting to remove excess water is NOT a problem. After all, the oil is usually at about 350 deg when it is used for cooking!
yep, this is exactly what we are trying to do. Gramling instructions are to de-water @ 90C, then let it cool to 40C before adding the methoxide.
Will have to try a few more junk appliance places for a thermostat.
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Old 02-11-2009, 08:44 AM
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Originally Posted by SkySkiJason View Post

Also, polymerization is main reason why no OE recommends higher than B5.
WRONG! CASE IH allows bio up to B-100. http://www1.caseih.com/northamerica/...px?k=biodiesel
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Old 02-11-2009, 11:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fabmandelux View Post
Heating the WVO to the boiling point of water BEFORE reacting to remove excess water is NOT a problem. After all, the oil is usually at about 350 deg when it is used for cooking!
I respectfully disagree, this is a very common misconception. First, simply heating VO to above the boiling point of water will not 'remove' all the water. (BTW, neither will 'water block' filters) Second, there are sufficient additives (TBHQ and citric acid) to provide an adequate life in the fryer. Generally, restaurants use the oil to near this capacity (thats when they throw it out). It is the following exposure to steel (drums, dumpsters, etc), the oxygen added during pumping at collection, UV exposure (I don't think I included that in the listr above) and the time that follows until ya start messing with it again.

I recognize this is not a significant 'problem' for most people (there are ALOT of variables). Primarily because most of us burn our VO or bio-d shortly after 'processing'. And for some reason, many folks seem content to only get a few 1000 miles (or less) from vehicle fuel filters - this is mostly SVO conversions. The science remains - the VO is in a constant state of decay, and as a design, it is better to avoid the ingredients that accelerate it.

I was able to convince an SVO friend 350* did not remove the water after he replaced IP and injectors in a 7.3. The IP rebuilder specifically chastized him for allowing water to get into his fuel for an extended amount of time.

We heat (110* is plenty), settle (24hrs is usually enough) and then drain the water off the bottom of the oil. We Hot Pan Test, aka Crackle Test, to verify all of our oil is 'dry' before making bio-d or burning as SVO.
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Old 02-11-2009, 11:22 AM
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Originally Posted by fabmandelux View Post
WRONG! CASE IH allows bio up to B-100. Search Center - North America
Cool! I stand corrected, thank you!
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Old 02-11-2009, 11:59 AM
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This is not the 'report' I was looking for, but looks like a summary of same report. The full report has pictures showing the 'poly' in the failed IP's:
http://www.arb.ca.gov/fuels/diesel/0...odsl_bosch.pdf

another article describing the problem:
Biodiesel Magazine

This is a good one!
http://www.crcao.com/reports/recents...%20rev%203.pdf
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Old 02-22-2009, 06:46 PM
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If this helps anyone, this is a good suggestion that I am ashamed I didn't think of... several people suggested removing the stop ("pointer" on ours) allowing the thermostat to be turned past 150. Did it today, and got ours over 170. Not quite the 190 that I wanted, but if I insulate the pipes more, maybe I can get a few more degrees out of it. I was pleasantly surprised that the water heater itself remained cool to the touch. 20+ degrees seems to have made a difference with dewatering and should also with distillation of the methanol...
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Old 02-23-2009, 05:54 AM
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That is great! duuuuh... I need to try that trick w/this 180* t-stat I have!! Methanol recovery here I come!!

No need to heat VO that hot for dewatering, if you are heat & settle. I used 140* for a loooong time, but now I shoot for 100-110*. Other than not being warm as long this time of year, no difference in dewatering. The oil must simply be warm enough to allow the much heavier water to fall out - IOW, the water stays in same place if suspended in 'crisco', but as soon as ya make it liquid, the water can travel thru it. Just my experience playing w/VO for over 100k miles now...
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