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  #1  
Old 01-03-2009, 01:09 PM
John Rowe John Rowe is offline
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07 Expy blows blue smoke on cold start

Need some advice. My wife's 07 Expedition has 34K miles and on cold start will blow blue smoke for about 2 seconds. Does not do it the rest of the day. No obvious oil consumption and no leaks. Problem started about 2 months ago.

Took it into dealership, they confirmed blue smoke on cold start. But when I got my warranty paperwork, it said that they could not duplicate. Had a discussion with the service manager, who corrected the "UTD" code, but he explained that the engine might be "loading up with fuel" and causing the blue smoke. I debated with him the whole cause of blue smoke and asked if they would do a compression test to check for bad rings, he said that Ford would not pay for a compression check because the computer said all settings were within specs. I was also told that it is common for all 5.4 to smoke on cold start. I offered to go onto the lot and check every 5.4 Expedition for cold start blue smoke, but he declined. There are no TSB's on this and no other documents to support their belief that the cylinders are loading up with fuel.

Any ideas or suggestions?

Thanks,
John
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  #2  
Old 01-03-2009, 01:39 PM
namrehs300 namrehs300 is offline
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I just got a bunch of white (blue?) smoke at startup on my 07 with 42,000 miles. Cold start but not that cold outside - maybe 50 degrees. I know what that means for a diesel but don't know what that is for a gasser.

Hasn't done it again in the past week.
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  #3  
Old 01-03-2009, 01:44 PM
John Rowe John Rowe is offline
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namrehs300: Have you taken it to Ford and have they told you anything?
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  #4  
Old 01-03-2009, 03:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John Rowe View Post
I was also told that it is common for all 5.4 to smoke on cold start.
Pretty common for all of the "Triton" engines:
http://www.ford-trucks.com/forums/69...a-restart.html
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Old 01-03-2009, 07:08 PM
John Rowe John Rowe is offline
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That was a very good thread, I suppose that all makes sense. I thought the service manager was grasping at straws when he came up with the cylinders loading up with fuel, because I was always told that blue smoke was oil, black was gas and white was water.

Why wouldn't Ford come out with a TSB on this?
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Old 01-06-2009, 01:18 PM
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--------------- Not on mine!!!! and the tailpipe has "NO" black soot inside what so ever,I can run my finger around the inside and come out CLEAN!!!!.
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Old 01-06-2009, 01:44 PM
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---------------Not"]http://www.ford-trucks.com/forums/691401-v10-smokes-after-a-restart.html
---------------[/url] Not on mine!!!! and the tailpipe has "NO" black soot inside what so ever,I can run my finger around the inside and come out CLEAN!!!!.[/quote]

I wish all tailpipes were like that.
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Old 02-20-2009, 10:39 AM
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I call BS>

My 03 5.4 did this with 35K on it. Then at 45K it was using about 1qt every 3k. At 56K it blew up going down the road.

Same with my 05, except i dumped it at 50K because the oil consumption was up to 1.5qts every 3k.

That is why I don't drive an expedition any more
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  #9  
Old 02-20-2009, 10:55 AM
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All mod motors do this....

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Originally Posted by John Rowe View Post
That was a very good thread, I suppose that all makes sense. I thought the service manager was grasping at straws when he came up with the cylinders loading up with fuel, because I was always told that blue smoke was oil, black was gas and white was water.

Why wouldn't Ford come out with a TSB on this?
It would be a good idea for Ford to come out with a TSB, but there really is no problem here that can be corrected other than letting the engine warm up every time it's started--and sometimes this would be dumb.

My '02 E150, 4.6, has done the blue smoke thing since new but ONLY when the previous start/run cycle was moving it from the driveway out to the front of the house and shutting it down or like that.

For what it's worth, I had the problematic early Romeo PI cylinder heads, and at 42k miles (now van is at 69k) I got a brand new pair of cylinder heads on the engine (under Premium Care warranty). The amount of blue smoke seems to be a *bit* less, but it will still do the smoke thing after a short run cycle and some time sitting.

I wouldn't worry a bit unless you start using any significant amounts of oil. I will note that if I fill my engine with 6 quarts of oil (putting it into the middle of the safe range on the dipstick), it will use almost zero oil--maybe 1/4-1/3 of a quart in 3000 miles.

If I fill it to the top of the safe range on the dipstick, it seems to consume a bit more oil and do a little more of the blue smoke stuff. (I believe the 5.4 needs 7 quarts to get it to the midpoint.)

George
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Old 02-20-2009, 11:03 AM
YoGeorge YoGeorge is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tkd View Post
I call BS>

My 03 5.4 did this with 35K on it. Then at 45K it was using about 1qt every 3k. At 56K it blew up going down the road.

Same with my 05, except i dumped it at 50K because the oil consumption was up to 1.5qts every 3k.

That is why I don't drive an expedition any more
Sounds to me like you're doing *something* to wear out your engines prematurely. One bad engine can be a fluke--I blew up a 305 Chevy V8 in my old GMC van at 42k when the timing chain snapped on the freeway so bad stuff *can* happen.

But...from everything I know about the mod motors, if you use the proper oil (5W20) and good filters (Motorcraft), they will generally last a very long time without problems. There are thousands of cop cars, taxis, and Ford trucks that have gone 200k, 300k, up to a million miles with healthy engines. (Check out millionmilevan.com for a van that has legitimately gone a million miles on a 5.4 mod motor.)

My guess is that you are either using the wrong oil/filter combo, or have some very bad usage habits (like our old neighbor, who would literally GUN his cars when starting them up in freezing weather...and in a couple years, his engines would blow blue smoke and make very expensive knocking noises.)

George
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Old 02-23-2009, 10:05 AM
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George,

Thanks for you input. As for your thoughts on maintenance and bad habits, I'll let you decide.

1. I used Mobil 1 5w-20 full synthetic and M1 filters every 3k. Did the changes myself so I can verify the oil fill and usage. While oil opinions vary, I believe M1 products to be of high quality, this is where you and I may have varying opinions and that is acceptable.

2. Lived in Houston Tx, so freezing weather was not an issue for the cold weather starts and "gunning" you reference.

3. Pulled less than 5 trailers in 3 years, all under 2k. In other terms, no heavy or severe service intervals.

4. The miles were 95% Highway miles usually driven at 75MPH in long runs (Dallas-Houston, Houston-New Orleans) so not much start and stop. Never did jackrabbit starts either as I was paying for my own gas and frankly, it would have cost too much.

Now the interesting part to me is that my 03 5.4 had issues, I have a friend with an 05 150 Lariat that has the same symptoms, another friend with an 05 Expedition, same symptons. All of of these trucks were purchases within about 30 days of each other.

My older 5.4 with the 2v design did not have any of these issues. Prior to that, my explorer with a 4.0 had no issues. In addition, I drove 3 Taurus' as company cars for 7 years and never had a single issue. My driving habits have not varied much if any over the years. So I guess you can point a finger to the driver and try to pass it off as that, but I honestly don't think it was driver abuse.

I am not saying that all 5.4 engines are bad, but I will say that I have not have not experienced the longevity some claim. I will also say that I have known others who share the same symptoms. So, in the intent of posting real information and experiences on this board that others may read and then use as real-life information in making decisions and analysis, I did.

Since you are able to easily attempt to push my experiences off as "owner error" or bad habits, I will push back. Take off your Ford blinders and be open that not everything they make is perfect. That's just naive.

(PS< I do still have a Ford Edge in the stable, but it is too early to tell how it will turn out.)
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Old 02-23-2009, 10:39 AM
YoGeorge YoGeorge is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tkd View Post
George,

Thanks for you input. As for your thoughts on maintenance and bad habits, I'll let you decide.

1. I used Mobil 1 5w-20 full synthetic and M1 filters every 3k. Did the changes myself so I can verify the oil fill and usage. While oil opinions vary, I believe M1 products to be of high quality, this is where you and I may have varying opinions and that is acceptable.

2. Lived in Houston Tx, so freezing weather was not an issue for the cold weather starts and "gunning" you reference.

3. Pulled less than 5 trailers in 3 years, all under 2k. In other terms, no heavy or severe service intervals.

4. The miles were 95% Highway miles usually driven at 75MPH in long runs (Dallas-Houston, Houston-New Orleans) so not much start and stop. Never did jackrabbit starts either as I was paying for my own gas and frankly, it would have cost too much.

Now the interesting part to me is that my 03 5.4 had issues, I have a friend with an 05 150 Lariat that has the same symptoms, another friend with an 05 Expedition, same symptons. All of of these trucks were purchases within about 30 days of each other.

My older 5.4 with the 2v design did not have any of these issues. Prior to that, my explorer with a 4.0 had no issues. In addition, I drove 3 Taurus' as company cars for 7 years and never had a single issue. My driving habits have not varied much if any over the years. So I guess you can point a finger to the driver and try to pass it off as that, but I honestly don't think it was driver abuse.

I am not saying that all 5.4 engines are bad, but I will say that I have not have not experienced the longevity some claim. I will also say that I have known others who share the same symptoms. So, in the intent of posting real information and experiences on this board that others may read and then use as real-life information in making decisions and analysis, I did.

Since you are able to easily attempt to push my experiences off as "owner error" or bad habits, I will push back. Take off your Ford blinders and be open that not everything they make is perfect. That's just naive.

(PS< I do still have a Ford Edge in the stable, but it is too early to tell how it will turn out.)
I'm far from a blinder-wearing apologist for Ford, but it really is rare these days to get a new engine of any brand that turns out to be an oil burner early on without some kind of abuse. (I've been driving for almost 40 years now, and there *used* to be a significant number of new engines that were just bad engines--casting flaws, bad cyl wall finishes, etc.)

How did you "blow up" your 2003 5.4? What failed--cams and/or valvetrain, or lower end? That would have been a 2V engine.

I'm confused when you say your '03 and two of your friends' '05's were purchased within 30 days of each other. Did you mean '05 on your truck here? That would be a 3V motor.

M1 oil and filters are probably fine, and probably overkill with 3k oil change intervals. I'm guessing the anti drainback valve on the Motorcraft filters is as good or maybe better than the one on the M1 filters.

Sounds like you're one of these lucky guys like those who get hit by lightning or win the lottery twice or something like that. Your original post appeared to be a "drive-by" post that didn't give much info aside from "they're all bad", and most of them are, in reality, not that bad.

George
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Old 02-23-2009, 11:18 AM
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I'm far from a blinder-wearing apologist for Ford, but it really is rare these days to get a new engine of any brand that turns out to be an oil burner early on without some kind of abuse. (I've been driving for almost 40 years now, and there *used* to be a significant number of new engines that were just bad engines--casting flaws, bad cyl wall finishes, etc.)
Well rare or not, my 5.4 3v with 7,000 miles had a destroyed a head. And I baby my truck.

DTC PO345 AND REMOVED LEFT VALVLE COVER, FOUND MULTIPLE LIFTERS ON LEFT HEAD COLLAPSED. FOUND TIMING CHAIN TENSIONER BLED OFF. TENSIONER GASKET FOUND TO BE AT FAULT. HEAD HAD CYL #6 EXHAUST CAM LOBE DAMAGE FROM FOLLOWER TIPPING DUE TO COLLAPSED LIFTER. HOTLINE RECOMMENDED CYL HEAD REPLACEMENT DUE TO EXH AUST GUIDE WEAR
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Old 02-23-2009, 11:45 AM
YoGeorge YoGeorge is offline
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Well rare or not, my 5.4 3v with 7,000 miles had a destroyed a head. And I baby my truck.

DTC PO345 AND REMOVED LEFT VALVLE COVER, FOUND MULTIPLE LIFTERS ON LEFT HEAD COLLAPSED. FOUND TIMING CHAIN TENSIONER BLED OFF. TENSIONER GASKET FOUND TO BE AT FAULT. HEAD HAD CYL #6 EXHAUST CAM LOBE DAMAGE FROM FOLLOWER TIPPING DUE TO COLLAPSED LIFTER. HOTLINE RECOMMENDED CYL HEAD REPLACEMENT DUE TO EXH AUST GUIDE WEAR
We had been talking about oil burners, but yeah, you obviously had a problem--again, you were probably just "lucky" in terms of stats. And so was I. My '02 E150 has a Romeo 4.6 and there was a TSB that covered the early Romeo PI heads which would tick (and mine ticked) because of bad cooling of the exhaust valve stems on the rear cylinders.

So I got a new pair of cylinder heads at 42k miles, under the Premium Care warranty, for $100 deductible. So I'm not at all blind to these engines having problems. There are also the spark plug fiascos of blown out plugs in the early motors and stuck plugs in the 3V motors.

But these are usually not oil burning problems. I am hoping that Ford has gotten some cylinder head designers who know what they're doing after these failures. (Although I like the mod motors, the overhead cams are just not needed in truck motors, and create complexity and service expense along with huge size.)

Again, I am no apologist for Ford.

George
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Old 02-23-2009, 02:53 PM
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George,

I stand corrected, the 2003 was a 2v motor.

Now to answer your questions:

1. I never said that all 5.4 motors were bad, merely that mine had not been as good as I liked

2. When my 2003 gave out, I was driving on I 45 at about 75 mph when I heard a knock. As luck would have it, it was 1-2 miles from the dealership I purchased the truck from. I limped it in and had the service center manager listen to it. His response "shut it down---it's shot". The cause was thought to be in the upper valve train/top end somewhere, but I was advised not to open it if I didn't have too as Ford techs said that tearing down a 5.4 to determine the cause would cost nearly as much as a new motor, then repairs on top of that. It was out of warranty.

3. The 03 was obviously purchased earlier than the other vehicles I mentioned. My 05, a friends 05, and the F150 were all purchased in April 2005.

I did take my 05 in when it had begun to puff smoke upon start up. The truck was under warranty. I went to 2 dealers. Was told the same thing. "not reproduceable". I did speak to one of the techs on the side and he told me that he had heard the blue smoke story on start up before. His best guess and my limited research points to drainback through the valves when the engine is not running, leading to a smoking condition on startup. I am not a mechanic so I can't verify this.

I ultimately ended up dumping the truck.

I traded the 05 for a host of reasons including, but not limited to:

1. Steering nibble which Ford could not fix despite 3 attempts and 3 new steering racks

2. Lower Ball joints gone at 45K, uppers starting to go according to Ford, and no, I didn't have an extende warranty

3. Electrical systems were beginning to get gremlins at 50K including:

Heated seat ---$400 to replace

Auto climate control working intermittenly

constant alignment issues and "eating of tires"---Ford found nothing on multiple warranty visits. I had 2 sets of tires replaced under warranty and was on my 3rd when I got rid of the truck.

4. The oil issue. I just dont' feel good about a truck that burns 1.5qt every 3k with such low mileage. I know many who have the same engine and they didn't have that problem, but I knew a few as I said who did. My own personal conclusion was that at least 1 batch of the engines weren't as good as others, why or how, no clue.


For anyone who has driven an Expedition and had great luck with it, I'm happy for you. Having driven 4 Expeditions including 2wd and 4wd, 4.6 and 5.4, a 2000, 2002, 2003, and a 2005, it is my honest opinion that the Expedition during those years declined in quality. After that, I have no clue.

2000---4.6l , best truck I have owned in a long time

2002----11 different major warranty repairs in everything including, suspension, anti-lock systems and computers, electrical gremlins and others I can remember....A local dealer finally made me a great deal to get me out of the truck and into the 2003 given that I had been back so often.

2003----Motor gave out early

2005----truck was just not holding up.....see above.


Could I be jaded, maybe, but with all honesty I can say that the best was the 2000, each of the rest were just sub-par. I never had any issues with any of the other Fords I drove (and believe me, the company cars were not treated the same as my own) so that is why I feel the way I do about Expeditions.

So, I guess in the end, you will probably still feel that I was responsible for blowing up the engines, which is fine. After all, you've been driving for 40 years, which makes you an expert on all things engine-related and you're right, it was probably my lack of driving experience that caused it. I've only been driving for 24 years.

Have a good.
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Old 02-23-2009, 02:53 PM
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