oh yah and Red Ford Truck, why did the canadian cross the road? He saw some american do it on tv.
Funny you talk about TV, there was a game show on in the U.S. and if you won First prize was a trip to buffalo.
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Second prize was two trips to buffalo
Also the Buffalo Bisons? isn't that like calling them the buffalo buffalos?
Rick.
__________________
"I'm not convinced that faith can move mountains, but I've seen what it can do to skyscrapers." - William Gascoyne
Funny you talk about TV, there was a game show on in the U.S. and if you won First prize was a trip to buffalo.
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Second prize was two trips to buffalo
Also the Buffalo Bisons? isn't that like calling them the buffalo buffalos?
All I've got to say is I've been been a GM boy all my life, I soon will be purchasing a new full sized pickup, always owned Sierra's, this year I've done my research, gone to the Toronto Show, sat in them all, asked a lot of questions, read every forum I could get, & for my money this years Ford F150 won me over.
The innovations, styling, interior features, beat GM & Ram easily, never thought I would leave GM, but it will be happening this year, when I order a 2010 Platinum, I get almost giddy looking at them, never felt this way about my Sierra's, Ford here I come!!!
sparky56
All I've got to say is I've been been a GM boy all my life, I soon will be purchasing a new full sized pickup, always owned Sierra's, this year I've done my research, gone to the Toronto Show, sat in them all, asked a lot of questions, read every forum I could get, & for my money this years Ford F150 won me over.
The innovations, styling, interior features, beat GM & Ram easily, never thought I would leave GM, but it will be happening this year, when I order a 2010 Platinum, I get almost giddy looking at them, never felt this way about my Sierra's, Ford here I come!!!
sparky56
I like the old ones myself, Fords are my favorite but there are GMs and Dodges too.
Welcome aboard.
Rick.
__________________
"I'm not convinced that faith can move mountains, but I've seen what it can do to skyscrapers." - William Gascoyne
I'm going to admit I didn't wade through all 25 pages of this post. First couple of pages, and then skipped to my two cents.
I'm also going to admit that this post has been brought to you by aproximately 3 shots worth of vodka in daddy's special orange juice and a couple Rolling Rocks.
That said:
I have no brand loyalty. As shocking as it sounds, I think all the manufacturers make a quality product now. If 3% of Company A and 1.6% of Company B's products fail, you've got a pretty durn good chance with either. I've owned Chevy, Jeep, International, Dodge, Ford, Lincoln, Saturn, and GM vehicles over the years. I beat a Crown Vic to death professionally.
There is no "best" for every situation. You want a smooth ride? Brother, a late 90s Lincoln is the best ride you can buy. You want a great hp/$ ratio, the Corvette is awfully hard to beat. Want to stand out from the crowd? International is a pretty sweet choice. Want a decent compromise between luxury and toughness? A Jeep Grand Cherokee is something you ought to consider, and of course the Wrangler is in a class all by itself these days for a trail vehicle.
Its a competitive market place and details like the appeal of the interior, available features, reputation, and price are going to sell cars more than reliabililty ratings. Witness the success of Kia and Hyundai, which don't excel at anything except price.
If Ford wants to excel (which I hope they do. I'm buying stock while its sub-$3), they need to work on their marketing and price point. You should see the commercials they air for Ford in the Middle East. They are AWESOME and the Mustang is BY FAR the most popular American car there. The one I remember the most shows 4 young Arabic boys playing with a Hot Wheels Mustang car, then the "same" kids as teenagers wistfully watching a 90s Mustang roll by, and finally the "same" Arabs as adults laughing and driving a convertible Mustang with a message that is basically "you've finally made it happen." That's an awesome commercial. With the possible exception of the Edge, Ford has not aggressively marketed any of there revamped vehicles. The new Taurus is awesome, but how many people really know about it? The 500 never got the marketing it deserved, and the new trucks really aren't either. Dodge does a much better job marketing, frankly. This is a board of enthusiasts, but lets be honest, enthusiasts don't make up the majority of the market. The uninformed or un-loyal (like me) make up most of the sales. Tell us why we should consider you. The Challenger probably hasn't sold as well as it could have for the same reason. Dodge hasn't really emphasized it, relying on the enthusiast sales to carry the day.
In summary of a somewhat rambling post:
Ford makes as good a product as anyone else in their playing field, but hasn't done a good job of differentiating themselves and standing out. They have not established the reputation that a brand like Jeep carries (even after trying to destroy it with the Compass/Patriot), and have not generated the excitement they should have. IMHO, they are doing a better job putting Lincoln out there than there other brands.
I'm going to admit I didn't wade through all 25 pages of this post. First couple of pages, and then skipped to my two cents.
I have no brand loyalty. As shocking as it sounds, I think all the manufacturers make a quality product now. If 3% of Company A and 1.6% of Company B's products fail, you've got a pretty durn good chance with either. I've owned Chevy, Jeep, International, Dodge, Ford, Lincoln, Saturn, and GM vehicles over the years. I beat a Crown Vic to death professionally.
There is no "best" for every situation. You want a smooth ride? Brother, a late 90s Lincoln is the best ride you can buy. You want a great hp/$ ratio, the Corvette is awfully hard to beat. Want to stand out from the crowd? International is a pretty sweet choice. Want a decent compromise between luxury and toughness? A Jeep Grand Cherokee is something you ought to consider, and of course the Wrangler is in a class all by itself these days for a trail vehicle.
Its a competitive market place and details like the appeal of the interior, available features, reputation, and price are going to sell cars more than reliabililty ratings. Witness the success of Kia and Hyundai, which don't excel at anything except price.
In summary of a somewhat rambling post:
Ford makes as good a product as anyone else in their playing field, but hasn't done a good job of differentiating themselves and standing out. They have not established the reputation that a brand like Jeep carries (even after trying to destroy it with the Compass/Patriot), and have not generated the excitement they should have. IMHO, they are doing a better job putting Lincoln out there than there other brands.
Very interesting post, I deleted some for space. Excellent perspective on things. You stated that you have abused a Crown Vic proffessionally, I'm going to assume that you are an officer of the law. If so, thank you.
No one is advertising like they used. Ad money is very expensive.
I've only known a few people in person that have no brand loyalty. It's very funny to listen to a person who has no loyalties and then watch what they drive. The car is simply a vehicle and nothing more. A tool, a machine, a necessity.
Not offend you, but that's boring as hell. I agree that most people are less informed then they should be but I also feel that more people are loyal to a brand UNTIL the builder drives them away due to crappy service or poor build quality. The domestics are battling that front as we speak.
I am a Ford enthusiast and am loyal exlusively to FMC. I've only had one POS in 30 years. I couldn't see myself owning a Dodge or a GM truck or car. My sister owns a Trailblazer, she thinks it's a tank, I think it's good running but poorly built rag.
I believe that as the economy strenghtens, we'll see the auto ads return.
Tim
__________________ SCPO United States Coast Guard Retired '04 Expedition XLT 4x2 '99 Taurus Wagon SE 24V '88 F-150 4x4 XLT Lariat 5.8L 5Spd
Rights of Passage: CPO Initiation, Submarine Qualified (SS), Golden Shellback, Blue Nose, Order of the Ditch
Unlike calm and carefree me Tim can be quite the rabble rouser.
Calm down Tim and tell the man the truth it's the dealerships driving the domestic brand loyalty into the ground.
Story for today, here goes, my best pal and I drove to StCatherins Ontario on Saturday to pick up my new factory fit All Aluminum Griffin Rad (It's a piece of art work, but that's another post) on the way back my pal says I'd like to go and test drive one of the new Dodge Challengers are you in for that?
I say sure let's do that because most likely Ford is not going to build a new Bronco so I'd like to see and maybe test drive one of the 4 door Rubicons.
Well we stop at the local Dodge dealership and meet one of the slimiest salesman I can remember $40 hair cut and pointy cowboy boots.
He says can I help you gentlemen? My pal says I'd like to look at a Challenger and maybe take it out for a test drive and also could I have a ball park figure on lowest and highest cost? Salesman says well that will depend on what your trading and how much you owe on it.
My pal says pardon, I drive a 2007 Mustang and I don't owe anything on it but what does that have to do with the price of a new Challenger?
Salesman ignores that and tells us he only has an automatic and would that be ok, my pal says I'd like to try out the 6spd manual, the salesman says oh yea they're really hard to come by.
My friend says thanks for your time we're just going to grab some brochures.
Mean while the salesmanager comes up to mr. slick salesman and says we have a couple you sold a car to yesterday and they seem very upset and stressed out, I look at my pal and say let's get out of here.
We leave he says let's check and see what the next town from us has, I say sure so off we head down the hyway to pretty much the same scenario at the next dodge dealership.
More and more the dealerships seem to be a large part of the problem, now is it because they are poorly treated by the manufacturers as I've heard several complain or is it just a greed and apathy thing?
Rick.
__________________
"I'm not convinced that faith can move mountains, but I've seen what it can do to skyscrapers." - William Gascoyne
Unlike calm and carefree me Tim can be quite the rabble rouser.
Calm down Tim and tell the man the truth it's the dealerships driving the domestic brand loyalty into the ground.
Story for today, here goes, my best pal and I drove to StCatherins Ontario on Saturday to pick up my new factory fit All Aluminum Griffin Rad (It's a piece of art work, but that's another post) on the way back my pal says I'd like to go and test drive one of the new Dodge Challengers are you in for that?
I say sure let's do that because most likely Ford is not going to build a new Bronco so I'd like to see and maybe test drive one of the 4 door Rubicons.
Well we stop at the local Dodge dealership and meet one of the slimiest salesman I can remember $40 hair cut and pointy cowboy boots.
He says can I help you gentlemen? My pal says I'd like to look at a Challenger and maybe take it out for a test drive and also could I have a ball park figure on lowest and highest cost? Salesman says well that will depend on what your trading and how much you owe on it.
My pal says pardon, I drive a 2007 Mustang and I don't owe anything on it but what does that have to do with the price of a new Challenger?
Salesman ignores that and tells us he only has an automatic and would that be ok, my pal says I'd like to try out the 6spd manual, the salesman says oh yea they're really hard to come by.
My friend says thanks for your time we're just going to grab some brochures.
Mean while the salesmanager comes up to mr. slick salesman and says we have a couple you sold a car to yesterday and they seem very upset and stressed out, I look at my pal and say let's get out of here.
We leave he says let's check and see what the next town from us has, I say sure so off we head down the hyway to pretty much the same scenario at the next dodge dealership.
More and more the dealerships seem to be a large part of the problem, now is it because they are poorly treated by the manufacturers as I've heard several complain or is it just a greed and apathy thing?
Rick.
Rick, where the hell have you been bro!? Yeah, I'm usually trying to stir up some crap. To answer your question, fine sir. The dealers have always been treated poorly by the manufacturers and greed and apathy have always been the dealer's primary mode of doing business.
Now, there are plenty on here who rave about thier "smalltown" dealers. I grew up in a very, very small and economically disadvantaged part of Maine and the "small town" dealers there were all the crooked Aholes that run the high volume dealers in the cities. Greed is greed no matter how it's cloaked.
Tim
__________________ SCPO United States Coast Guard Retired '04 Expedition XLT 4x2 '99 Taurus Wagon SE 24V '88 F-150 4x4 XLT Lariat 5.8L 5Spd
Rights of Passage: CPO Initiation, Submarine Qualified (SS), Golden Shellback, Blue Nose, Order of the Ditch
Rick, where the hell have you been bro!? Yeah, I'm usually trying to stir up some crap. To answer your question, fine sir. The dealers have always been treated poorly by the manufacturers and greed and apathy have always been the dealer's primary mode of doing business.
Now, there are plenty on here who rave about thier "smalltown" dealers. I grew up in a very, very small and economically disadvantaged part of Maine and the "small town" dealers there were all the crooked Aholes that run the high volume dealers in the cities. Greed is greed no matter how it's cloaked.
Tim
Well now that spring has hit Ontario things that have been waiting all winter need to get done.
I've done a 130 amp alternator update on my 79 Bronco (a must for any older Ford auto owner me thinks)
I've picked up my new Griffin all aluminum Rad made in South Carolina, Quality is excellent will go into 79 Bronco hopefully sometime this week.
Made arrangements for paint and body job on 79 Bronco in two weeks or so.
Made arrangements to pick up new to me 4 year old used travel trailer to be towed by 79 Bronco with new rad and updated alternator and shiny paint job.
Other than that I've been around, what about you Tim what have you been up to?
Rick.
__________________
"I'm not convinced that faith can move mountains, but I've seen what it can do to skyscrapers." - William Gascoyne
Well now that spring has hit Ontario things that have been waiting all winter need to get done.
I've done a 130 amp alternator update on my 79 Bronco (a must for any older Ford auto owner me thinks)
I've picked up my new Griffin all aluminum Rad made in South Carolina, Quality is excellent will go into 79 Bronco hopefully sometime this week.
Made arrangements for paint and body job on 79 Bronco in two weeks or so.
Made arrangements to pick up new to me 4 year old used travel trailer to be towed by 79 Bronco with new rad and updated alternator and shiny paint job.
Other than that I've been around, what about you Tim what have you been up to?
Rick.
Nothing news worthy in the auto arena. I work hard every day, come home to a loving family and support my daughter in her plight for softball excellence.
I am planning to sell my '88 next year. I'm going to take the plunge and get a 2010 / 2011 F-series truck. I've been spending a little time researching but I haven't completely decided yet.
I went through a short period where I wanted an older Ford to play around with and wrench on a little. I got over that. I had considered restoring my '88 but there is nothing really cool about an '88 Ford truck. I've pretty much rebuilt the whole damned thing anyway. All she needs now is paint. I'm not spending another red cent on it.
I'm tired and rambling and we've definately run this one off track.
Tim
__________________ SCPO United States Coast Guard Retired '04 Expedition XLT 4x2 '99 Taurus Wagon SE 24V '88 F-150 4x4 XLT Lariat 5.8L 5Spd
Rights of Passage: CPO Initiation, Submarine Qualified (SS), Golden Shellback, Blue Nose, Order of the Ditch
I had considered restoring my '88 but there is nothing really cool about an '88 Ford
I am planning to sell my '88 next year. I'm going to take the plunge and get a 2010 / 2011 F-series truck. I've been spending a little time researching but I haven't completely decided yet.
I went through a short period where I wanted an older Ford to play around with and wrench on a little. I got over that. I had considered restoring my '88 but there is nothing really cool about an '88 Ford truck. I've pretty much rebuilt the whole damned thing anyway. All she needs now is paint. I'm not spending another red cent on it.
Tim[/quote]
Tim have a look at my 1990 F150 in my gallery and tell me again there is nothing cool about your 88 same body style.
I've had folks almost hit me on the hyway trying to get a closer look and give me the thumbs up.
For what your new 2011 will lose in depreciation and taxes as soon as you drive it off the lot you could make that 88 F150 in to a chariot for the gods, fast and shiny with some tasteful 20inch rims update the mirrors to the 95 F150 version you'll love it I'm sure.
Rick.
__________________
"I'm not convinced that faith can move mountains, but I've seen what it can do to skyscrapers." - William Gascoyne
I am planning to sell my '88 next year. I'm going to take the plunge and get a 2010 / 2011 F-series truck. I've been spending a little time researching but I haven't completely decided yet.
I went through a short period where I wanted an older Ford to play around with and wrench on a little. I got over that. I had considered restoring my '88 but there is nothing really cool about an '88 Ford truck. I've pretty much rebuilt the whole damned thing anyway. All she needs now is paint. I'm not spending another red cent on it.
Tim
Tim have a look at my 1990 F150 in my gallery and tell me again there is nothing cool about your 88 same body style.
I've had folks almost hit me on the hyway trying to get a closer look and give me the thumbs up.
For what your new 2011 will lose in depreciation and taxes as soon as you drive it off the lot you could make that 88 F150 in to a chariot for the gods, fast and shiny with some tasteful 20inch rims update the mirrors to the 95 F150 version you'll love it I'm sure.
Rick.[/quote]
Your '90 def is a sharp looking machine. All good points worthy of consideration.
Tim
__________________ SCPO United States Coast Guard Retired '04 Expedition XLT 4x2 '99 Taurus Wagon SE 24V '88 F-150 4x4 XLT Lariat 5.8L 5Spd
Rights of Passage: CPO Initiation, Submarine Qualified (SS), Golden Shellback, Blue Nose, Order of the Ditch
I've only known a few people in person that have no brand loyalty. It's very funny to listen to a person who has no loyalties and then watch what they drive. The car is simply a vehicle and nothing more. A tool, a machine, a necessity.
Not offend you, but that's boring as hell.
I'd kind of go the opposite way. One brand is for Fleet Services, not a hobbyist. Variety is anything but boring.
You're making the assumption that no brand loyalty equals no love of the machine. Totally not true. If a guy has owned nothing but 7 bone stock Civics over the years, he's loyal as a hound, but is he not an appliance driver?
Few of my cars have ever remained stock, from lift kits to engine work to stereo upgrades. Over the years I've owned 3 Camaros, a Corvette, an old full sized Blazer with 6" of lift, a Dodge with 4" of lift, a Scout, and a host of others. Not really appliance cars IMHO. I've had two appliances, both as a student. A Ford Fiesta and a Saturn SC2.
The lack of brand loyalty just opens my horizons a bit. If you're 100% loyal to Ford, that's fine, but no brand line excels in every area. I loved my Corvette and I loved my International Scout, both were awesome at what I bought them for. Chevy makes nothing like the Scout, and International makes nothing like the Corvette. Neither makes anything as comfortable or with a better looking interior than Lincoln. Couldn't have it both ways with brand loyalty.
If somebody (Big 3, you listening?) would build a big luxury four door convertible again, like the old Lincolns, I'd buy it no matter what name plate was on it. I'd hate to think I'd pass on a car I'd otherwise enjoy driving just because it's not the same as the others in the garage.
You're biased plain and simple. It's not the medias fault that Ford has a bad perception in quality. Ford has been building poor quality vehicles for years. The Media just calls it like it is.
Only recently has their quality improved and that's if you actually believe it.
Ford claims they are now on par with Toyota.
Are they really? I don't believe it at all. They might be getting closer but it could have something to do with Toyota trying to be the biggest and suffering in quality.
It likely is a combination of Toyota's quality dropping and Fords climbing so the are getting closer in the middle.
Toyota's VP says he is ashamed of the new Tundra and it's a dissapointing vehicle. Ford says it's on par now.
How does that stack up?
Decades of building junk vehicles and their crappy warranty work and unhelpfull dealerships with poor customer service has left a brand on them that they will have a hard time recovering from.
Too many consumers like me were burned with poor quality Ford vehicles in the past and they are not going to forget it. It will take decades of building the best vehicles for most consumers to give them a try again.
It sounds like you have been lucky with your Fords but you are the minority for sure.
Apparently you have never owned a Japanese vehicle or you would know they are not crap. Most of the people in this country would disagree with you on that point.
Ex
You call others Bias but all of your points are your opinions with out backing them up with facts. It sounds as though you are biased.
Am I biased? you bet and my opinions are based on personal experience.
I own a 94 F350 crewcab 4x4 with 460. 190K on the clock. It tows my 4000# race truck (94 ford Lightning) and 1500 # trailer across country a couple of time a year. Burns no oil runs like a champ. Toyota and it's asian brothers don't even build a vehicle with these abilities. So much for Ford not building what the public wants. I also own 2 94 ford lightnings. Mine is my daily driver. 234K on the clock. quality is job 1. The second is also a 94 lightning. 351W stroked to 408 and supercharges and putting out 600 RWHP and 700 lbs of TRQ. Just finished 1st season of high 10 sec quarter miles at 125 MPH. Block is stock. Drive train is stock. Zero failures.
Prior to that I had 2 bromcos both went over 200K prior to selling.
Don't see what you want on a dealers lot. order exactly what you want an ford will put it on your door step in 4 to 6 weeks. Try that with a foriegn car. Guess the american public has learned to accept lesser service in that regaurd.
Sorry for the rant but Ford put food on my families table and paid for my education. Thats what started my loyalty and a great product that fit my needs is what has kept it.
Mike
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You've got the fever LOL
To answer your question, fine sir. The dealers have always been treated poorly by the manufacturers and greed and apathy have always been the dealer's primary mode of doing business. 
