Why would Ford build anything the buyer wants?

[FTE Ken]

Originally Posted by tseekins Ok there we go again bashing unions. Apparantly you don't watch the news or read the newspaper. Toyota (non-unionized) is shutting down how many plants for how long? Nowhere near as many jobs lost there as with GM. Thier cost per vehicle is lower than the US automakers and they're still shutting down? It only means they are being hit hard as well, but not nearly as hard, because they aren't shutting down nearly as much. Who in the hell is looking after the blue collar workers!? Are they getting paid? Do thier families deserve that? When you lose your job you deserve no paycheck from the company. You get paid 8 hours pay for 8 hours work. No work, no pay. Period. One "deserves" only what one creates through their own labor and creative thought. [When the economy is great and cars are selling, the unions never get bashed, Now that's a complete false hood. There are plenty of people, myself included, who have been anti-union for a long time, and aren't afraid to voice our opinions. We believe in capitalism, not socialism. when things go to hell in a handbasket the evil empire called the UAW or any other union must be at fault. The union is both a catalyst and contributing factor, not the entire reason. I agree, the ubnions protect all the wrong people and enab;e people to slack and get away with it. Good, then maybe you'll agree they need to go. But, they don't control the economy nor do they set policy for the company to build it's business model around. No, but they suck the competitive blood out of companies, making it harder for them to survice tough times.

[preppypyro]

Originally Posted by tseekins

I respectfully disagree that the parts are cheaper.

I gotta agree too, I dont think toyota or honda parts are cheaper.

I find this whole "this car is boring" kinda funny. Thats just personal taste. Guys that like ford are gonna think any other car is "boring" and guys that like honda will think that anything then a honda is "boring".

Styling is just a personal preference.

[tseekins]

Originally Posted by FTE Ken

Nowhere near as many jobs lost there as with GM.



It only means they are being hit hard as well, but not nearly as hard, because they aren't shutting down nearly as much.



When you lose your job you deserve no paycheck from the company. You get paid 8 hours pay for 8 hours work. No work, no pay. Period. One "deserves" only what one creates through their own labor and creative thought.



Now that's a complete false hood. There are plenty of people, myself included, who have been anti-union for a long time, and aren't afraid to voice our opinions. We believe in capitalism, not socialism.



The union is both a catalyst and contributing factor, not the entire reason.



Good, then maybe you'll agree they need to go.



No, but they suck the competitive blood out of companies, making it harder for them to survice tough times.

Hi Ken, I haven't seen you post lately. I trust the new year found you well in good health. We're just going to have to agree to disagree. My feelings about unions are mixed but I believe that they still serve a useful purpose. All companies are doing damage control these days, not just the unionized companies. Unions are only going to get stronger as the new administration takes office. The next four years will be interesting.



Tim

[FTE Ken]

I doubt they will get stronger. Unions have been getting weaker and losing membership for 30+ years, though every presidential administration. I don't feel it's government's job to rescue companies, any company.

[Red Ford Truck]

I think your views are simplistic and naive.

I do not work for a unionized company and I am not a member of any union.

Ok now that that's out of the way, first the unions did not put us in this current financial mess we're in Big Business and Big Government did and the unbridled greed that goes along with that.

Unions are not perfect IMO but I believe they supply a necessary balance in our economy not only from a monitory stand point but in a human rights arena as well. They serve to set a standard of living bench mark.

When you spout your myopic opinion on unions you sound like Wendell raving about how the Toyotas and Hondas suck for no other reason than it is his opinion.
This I think is the root of a bigger problem and that problem is little or no tolerance for your fellow man, not you per say but the general population at large.

Rick.

[wendell borror]

Hey, that is my opinion. It's like my vote, it's the one thing know one can take away from me. One mans junk is another mans treasure. I don't have to proof honda or toyota is junk, it just my opinion, it's just how I feel. Not that they actually suck, it's a figure of speach. I'm sure there great vehicles, but I'm ford guy, a ford guy who's tired of hearing about how great they are on a ford forum. It's never how great mazda, or kia is, just the same old song. I just wouldn't mind a different tune once in a while.
With that said Rick, I'm not a union guy either, but reconize some of the good they have done like you. I also understand that greed has led to a lot of thier down fall. I see both sides of the union issue to an extent. I'm not as much anti-union as I am anti-greed and coruption of the unions, some even have mob ties.

[Red Ford Truck]

Originally Posted by wendell borror

Hey, that is my opinion. It's like my vote, it's the one thing know one can take away from me. One mans junk is another mans treasure. I don't have to proof honda or toyota is junk, it just my opinion, it's just how I feel. Not that they actually suck, it's a figure of speach. I'm sure there great vehicles, but I'm ford guy, a ford guy who's tired of hearing about how great they are on a ford forum. It's never how great mazda, or kia is, just the same old song. I just wouldn't mind a different tune once in a while.
With that said Rick, I'm not a union guy either, but reconize some of the good they have done like you. I also understand that greed has led to a lot of thier down fall. I see both sides of the union issue to an extent. I'm not as much anti-union as I am anti-greed and coruption of the unions, some even have mob ties.

I was just trying to point out exactly what you said it is an opinion.
The only difference I see in my examples is your opinion of Fords doesn't hurt anyones feelings.

Kens I think does hurt feelings(not mine of course) but perhaps others who worked with their union brethren and created life long friendships meaningful useful work lives.

We do not all fit in the same boxes, something I forget sometimes too.

Rick.

[FTE Ken]

Originally Posted by Red Ford Truck

I think your views are simplistic and naive.

And I think yours are result of believing union propaganda. I back up what I say with data, most folks don't have incentive to read and research, instead relying on opinion only.

I do not work for a unionized company and I am not a member of any union.

Ok now that that's out of the way, first the unions did not put us in this current financial mess we're in Big Business and Big Government did and the unbridled greed that goes along with that.

I never stated unions put us in this mess, not once. I've asserted that unions have made it harder for the Big 3 to survive this, verses non-unionized auto companies. Their costs with both current employees and legacy costs, compounds the problems greatly.

Unions are not perfect IMO but I believe they supply a necessary balance in our economy not only from a monitory stand point but in a human rights arena as well. They serve to set a standard of living bench mark.

Balance? They take away skills and individual merit off the table and replace it with socialism. People with few marketable skills, making more than those who educate themselves with marketable skill sets, costing companies enormous amounts of money.

- GM has hundreds of thousands more people in retirement then they have working. In part due to the short work window compared to retirement years.

- UAW workers get Viagra paid for with their health care system.

- The UAW has a golf course that has cost $25 million to maintain in the past 5 years alone.

- UAW workers cost automakers more than double what they cost non-union automakers.

- UAW workers make almost 3 times the average wage/benefits of corporate America.

- The UAW doesn't believe in fair competition in the workforce, and is currently involved in a Federal lawsuit for blocking promotions of non-union employees.

- Union bosses... do they work: Video

- In May and November 2007, the UAW forked over nearly $53,000 for union staff meetings at the Thousand Hills Golf Resort in Branson, Missouri.

- In September 2007, the UAW dropped another $5,000 at the Lakes of Taylor Golf Club in Taylor, Michigan and another $9,000 at the Thunderbird Hills Golf Club in Huron, Ohio.

- Another bill for $5,772 showed up for the Branson, Missouri golf resort.

- On Oct. 26, 2007, the union spent $5,000 on another “golf outing” in Detroit.

- In May and June 2007, UAW bosses spent nearly $11,000 on a golf tournament and related expenses at the Hawthorne Hill Country Club in Lima, Ohio.

- In August 2007, the UAW paid nearly $10,000 to its for-profit Black Lake golf course operator, UBG, for something itemized as “Golf 2007 Summer School.” UBG had nearly $4.4 million worth of outstanding loans from the union.

- Another for-profit entity that runs the education center, UBE, had nearly $20 million in outstanding loans from the union.

- Bidding $9.75 million of workers’ funds to purchase the gated La Mancha Resort Village in Palm Springs.

- In 1996, union heavies got the bright idea to invest $5 million in United Broadcasting Network, a precursor to Air America that the UAW hoped to use to spread its propaganda. They shelled out for a $2 million, state-of-the-art studio in Detroit and incurred years of losses of a reported $75,000 a month before closing the network down in 2003.

- They’ve operated massive joint funds for years that have paid for lavish items such as multi-million-dollar NASCAR racer sponsorships and Las Vegas junkets.

- The UAW has repeatedly tried to get around paying the assessed property taxes on a $33 million private resort for members and their families in recent years, which has impacted funding for education and other basic public services in rural Northern Michigan.

- Rank-and-file workers charged that Local 594 bosses embezzled more than $480,000 to settle a sexual harassment suit against ex-president Donny G. Douglas and to pay legal bills.

- There are huge absenteeism gaps between UAW-controlled and nonunion American factories. Ford put programs in place to combat this about 10 years ago when it was at its peak (1 in 3 UAW workers didn't show up on any given day).

- 2007, Toyota and Nissan had an average daily absentee rate of 2%, while in Michigan the average daily absentee rate in a union auto factory was 10% to 12%. Oh yeah, its "human rights" to have 10% of the work force skip out on any given day!

- There is a Federal racketeering suit against UAW union bosses who secretly agreed in advance to allow Freightliner managers to impose limitations on wages, cancel an employee profit sharing bonus, and increase employees’ share of health care costs. In exchange, the company allegedly agreed to help the union bosses get monopoly-bargaining power over the employees.

- Throughout the bailout hearings the UAW refused to make concessions despite the dire situation the auto companies face.

These are but a small sampling of the corruption in the UAW.

When you spout your myopic

Slamming someone with a three dollar word is slamming them none-the-less. Attack the messenger rather than take on the message.

opinion on unions you sound like Wendell raving about how the Toyotas and Hondas suck for no other reason than it is his opinion.

Better to "spout" than to drivel....

This I think is the root of a bigger problem and that problem is little or no tolerance for your fellow man, not you per say but the general population at large.

This is not a matter of tolerance, its a matter of its not government's job to rescue private industry. Let them survive or fail by their merit, or lack of merit, just like every other company has to.

Please come back when you have some data. I'll be happy to debate them, and will provide supporting data backing up my views.

[n3up]

Originally Posted by NumberDummy

And what happens when you get tired of fixing the usual British vehicle problems with their Lucas Electronics that fail before you start the engine.

The cork engine/trans gaskets that leak like sieves.

Does anyone know why the Brits don't make their own TV sets?

Because they haven't figured out how to make them leak oil yet!

[Red Ford Truck]

I at no time said that unions were perfect, they are subject to all the human nature greed just the same as any of us.

The fact that Viagra is covered by the negotiated contract settlement that was bargained in I would expect good faith has nothing to do with it.

You describe unions in a pure evil context and I just don't see it in that narrow of a light.

I am not going to argue that there is greed and gluttony coming from the union brass but I'm quite sure the same thing could be said of the management side.

As for unions not promoting valuable skill sets to the work force I know of many examples of folks starting at auto factories that are unionized getting a skilled trade ie electrician Plumber, carpenter or Tool and die then feeling they needed to expand themselves and quit there unionized factory job and went out on their own with those very skills they learned in a union shop.


You site greed and persevered misdoings by the Union management as your bases for them being bad.

But I would argue those well paid unionized workers are stable productive members of our society that pay taxes and feed our economy by purchasing houses and furniture as well as any none unionized worker out there.

Besides all those legacy costs that the big three have due to negotiated contracts in the past are not the fault of the unions but in fact the fault of the none unionized management that was employed by the big three at the time of those contracts.

BTW, I meant no offense but you do seem to have a very thin skin if someone disagrees with you based on your expensive word comment.

Which I would take as a question of my intelligence.

Rick.

[Red Ford Truck]

Scenario: You own a company of 100 unionized employees(please don't have nightmares tonight it's only a scenario LOL)

Now let's say you don't like an employee, let's say he or she has done nothing wrong and they are a very productive employee liked by their fellow employees and immediate supervisor.

But you just don't like this employee, what is stopping you from firing this or any other employee for no reason other than you don't personally like them or worse for no reason at all?

Answer: The Union.

Now let's say same company same employee same urge to fire said person, out come.

Employee is fired.

One very valuable reason to have a union, and yes the union protects the worst of the bunch but I would argue that is the minority and not the majority.


Rick.

[Fordsflylow]

Originally Posted by Red Ford Truck

snip I am not going to argue that there is greed and gluttony coming from the union brass but I'm quite sure the same thing could be said of the management side.

Rick.

I'll go even further and state that corporate management in general is much more corrupt and greed driven than any union is or was. I have no real proof other than the fact that this country is "now" in a tailspin and I lay blame squarely on the morons who run the show with there shameless greed sprinkled with no morals. It's not the fault of any union(s). Our govt up to this point in time has been plain ole unbridled fascism, and is likely the sole reason for our economy's downfall.

For the People, by the People, BUT "which" People!?! Sure doesn't appear to be the average joe's and jane's from my vantage point! I really hope obama changes the past workings (i.e. you pad my pocket and I'll pad yours, etc.) of dc. Long overdue imo!

[wendell borror]

Hey Rick, I bet you had no idea when you started this post that it would grow to 20 pages and cover so many topics. This one post gets more traffic than the whole general automotive forum ha ha. After posting here I got to know a lot of the other members much better including you that I may not have other wise got to have known. Your a pretty good guy and I'm glad I had the oppertunity to know you and others much better. So thats something good that came from all this if nothing else.

[FTE Ken]

Originally Posted by Red Ford Truck

Kens I think does hurt feelings(not mine of course) but perhaps others who worked with their union brethren and created life long friendships meaningful useful work lives.

Let me ask you a question...

Is reality happy, or full of challenges? Do we all hold and sing Kumbaya because we don't want so truthly things about reality in the world because it might not be pleasant? Have you ever heard of the Church of The Painful Truth?

The unpleasant reality many unions protect the inept workers, don't promote on merit, job performance, skill set and attendence, but rather on seniority. The unpleasant reality is in any market from plumbing to auto assembly, non-union companies are better able to compete and thrive.

The unpleasant reality is unions were pushed and promoted by the Communist Party in the USA, and the UAW even had a Communist party leader up until the 1950s. The socialist language still remains to this day (calling workers "brothers", using the term "solidarity". We've seen failed examples of socilism all over the world - it looks great in the beginning by soon topples under its own weight because it takes competitiveness out. If you doubt my conclusions, I'll be happy to supply a small history of the Communist Party involvement in union formation.

The unpleasant reality is unions have a history of anti-democratically demobilizing workers, persecuting critics, oppositionists or non-union fellow workers, while suppressing strategies that are majoritarian views.

The unpleasant reality is unions often ignore the political leanings of its members and use their money without consent to buy political favoritism. If there is any doubt about this, just look at the distribution of union contributions to the Democratic party this past year verses the politcal makeup of the union membership.

The unpleasant reality is the UAW has a history of corruption, from things like union bosses prolonging strikes in order to get union jobs for their family members, to loaning millions of dollars to for projects operated by family members and/or associates of union boses, to working with companies to pad bosses hours in exchange for prolonging grievence processes.

The unpleasant reality is many unions have counter-productive policies not good for economic growth such as paying people not to work (labor pools).

The unpleasant reality is the UAW's retirement plan that requires 30 years of work followed by retirement (which could last another 30 to 40 years) isn't sustainable, and is GM's #1 labor cost now. Most of America works to 65 years of age before retirement not their early to mid 50s.

The unpleasant reality is the UAW has produced a disaster for auto workers whose anti-competitive contracts have been part of the problems with the the destruction of more than 600,000 jobs at the big 3 since 1979.

The list goes on and on, its just the tip of the ice berg.

We do not all fit in the same boxes, something I forget sometimes too.

Exactly, yet unions do just that, workers are no longer individuals who compete, they become a socialist mass.

[FTE Ken]

Originally Posted by Red Ford Truck

I at no time said that unions were perfect, they are subject to all the human nature greed just the same as any of us.

On a huge collective scale.

The fact that Viagra is covered by the negotiated contract settlement that was bargained in I would expect good faith has nothing to do with it.

It is yet another example of the waste they create.

You describe unions in a pure evil context and I just don't see it in that narrow of a light.

Where did I say they were pure evil? I don't believe they are "evil." I believe they reflect their Communist/Socialist historical formations, they are corrupt, they foster waste, the stiffle competition, they suppress individual merit, etc.

I am not going to argue that there is greed and gluttony coming from the union brass but I'm quite sure the same thing could be said of the management side.

Two wrongs make a right?

As for unions not promoting valuable skill sets to the work force I know of many examples of folks starting at auto factories that are unionized getting a skilled trade ie electrician Plumber, carpenter or Tool and die then feeling they needed to expand themselves and quit there unionized factory job and went out on their own with those very skills they learned in a union shop.

Why did they take those skills outside? Perhaps because the competitive spirit does not exist in a collective environment? Perhaps because they'd rather go out and succeed or fail based on their own merit?

You site greed and persevered misdoings by the Union management as your bases for them being bad.

Only two of the many things wrong with them.

But I would argue those well paid unionized workers are stable productive

Productive? Who are you kidding? Take a look at the absenteeism records of UAW shops verses non-UAW auto shops.

members of our society that pay taxes and feed our economy by purchasing houses and furniture as well as any none unionized worker out there.

What does that have to do with the price of tea in China? Non-union members of Toyota, BMW and Nissan USA based auto plants pay taxes and feed our economy, and do it with less absenteeism.

Besides all those legacy costs that the big three have due to negotiated contracts in the past are not the fault of the unions but in fact the fault of the none unionized management that was employed by the big three at the time of those contracts.

Management negotiated higher costs for the auto-makers? Riiiiiiiiigggggggtttttt.

BTW, I meant no offense but you do seem to have a very thin skin if someone disagrees with you based on your expensive word comment.

You were the one who resorted to making personal comments.

Which I would take as a question of my intelligence.

Quite the opposite, it was my pointing out that no matter how eloquently you make a personal remark, its still personal none the less.

You've yet to provide supporting data.