How will the Big 3 use the bailout?
#31
12-12-2008, 07:35 AM
#33
12-12-2008, 08:20 AM
They can do whatever now that I know ford is safe. Ford said that they had enough money to last for awhile and didn't need the bailout right now if ever. I think there going to end up forcing chrysler and GM to merge. The problem with chrysler is there now privatly owned, there not publicly traded on the stock exchange. Cerbus, there owner is luch in cash as a company and won't disclose chryslers financial records, they want the goverment to take thier word for it that chryslers broke, which I'm sure they are. Cerbus doesn't want to float anymore of thier own cash into chrysler, they want it to be self efficent on it's own. They won't invest anymore into thier own company but are willing to let the tax payers do it. Cerbus bought a pig in the poke and I see no way for chrysler to survive. It needs to be swallowed up by another company and slowly disapear. I'm sure jeep will go on reguardless, as a lot of companies would be interested it owning it. Actualy, I wish ford would end up with jeep some how.
#34
12-12-2008, 08:57 AM
They can do whatever now that I know ford is safe. Ford said that they had enough money to last for awhile and didn't need the bailout right now if ever. I think there going to end up forcing chrysler and GM to merge. The problem with chrysler is there now privatly owned, there not publicly traded on the stock exchange. Cerbus, there owner is luch in cash as a company and won't disclose chryslers financial records, they want the goverment to take thier word for it that chryslers broke, which I'm sure they are. Cerbus doesn't want to float anymore of thier own cash into chrysler, they want it to be self efficent on it's own. They won't invest anymore into thier own company but are willing to let the tax payers do it. Cerbus bought a pig in the poke and I see no way for chrysler to survive. It needs to be swallowed up by another company and slowly disapear. I'm sure jeep will go on reguardless, as a lot of companies would be interested it owning it. Actualy, I wish ford would end up with jeep some how.
This was the only reason Cerberus wanted a merger, and it wasn't really a merger at all.
Cerberus wanted to trade Chrysler/Dodge to GM for their 49% share of GMAC.
What possible reason would GM want those two brands? Neither one is selling worth a damn, and not much of the brands GM is currently making is selling worth a damn, either.
If they did merge (IMO, it will never happen) you can kiss all the Chrysler/Dodge assembly plants and all their UAW and white collar workers good bye. Because GM would integrate those two brands into their system.
And don't forget, Cerberus only owns 81.1% of ChryCo.
Daimler AG (formerly Daimler/Chrysler, formerly Daimler-Benz) owns the other 19.1%.
#35
12-12-2008, 09:16 AM
), or we have some insight into why the auto industry is in trouble.Jason
#36
12-12-2008, 09:45 AM
TYPO cuz I transposed the Daimler figures.
Cerberus = 81.1% + Daimler AG = 18.9% = 100%.
You know...if you ever need a part number at some point, I could type another typo...on porpoise!
Nah...I wouldn't do that.
#37
12-12-2008, 10:37 AM
#38
12-14-2008, 03:22 PM
Lead Driver
...Maybe the fact the unions hosed our own car companies to the tune of shelling out over 70 bucks an hour to an auto worker---and the outside companies shell out slightly more then half that (about $45 an hour if memory serves)...Now considering the hourly average wage in the country is $25 an hour? Seems Toyota, Honda, Nissan, etc... Are paying a decent fair wage if it's over $35 an hour. And the big three wonder why they can't turn a profit here in the states?...They need to be left to work this out, and break some of these union hose jobs. Maybe going bankrupt would be the best thing for these companies. It could get the union slags off their back...S-
I've never been a big fan of unions, but fair is fair; that "$70 an hour" figure is misleading. And while I'm at it, the UAW is not responsible for our overpriced health care, they didn't cause the price of gas to go to $4.00/ gallon (causing Detroit's once super-profitable sales of trucks and SUVs to tank), and the auto workers on those assembly lines shouldn't have to lose their jobs just because of poor management and some rabidly anti-union southern senators. Every time there's been a crisis in Detroit over the past 40 years, the first thing the automakers do is demand concessions from the laborers; where are the concessions from the rest of the "usual suspects?" You know, the CEOS, the board of directors, the vice-presidents, the middle management? Until last week, I don't once ever recall a report of those guys taking a pay cut.
I really wish there was an alternative to this bail-out, but letting the Big 3 just go under will have a hugely detrimental effect on the overall economy. Certain senators have gone on the record that they believe any kind of tax increase right now will prevent us from getting us out of this recession. If they let GM, Ford & Chrysler go down the drain, I wouldn't worry about a tax-induced economic downturn, but a full-blown depression.
#39
12-14-2008, 03:57 PM
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A MODERN PARABLE . .
A Japanese company ( Toyota ) and an American company (GM)
decided to have a canoe race on the Missouri River. Both teams practiced long and hard to reach their peak performance before the race.
On the big day, the Japanese won by a mile.
The Americans, very discouraged and depressed, decided to investigate the reason for the crushing defeat. A management team made up of senior management was formed to investigate and recommend appropriate action.
Their conclusion was the Japanese had 8 people rowing and 1 person steering, while the American team had 8 people steering and 1 person rowing.
Feeling a deeper study was in order, American management hired a consulting company and paid them a large amount of money for a second opinion.
They advised, of course, that too many people were steering the boat, while not enough people were rowing.
Not sure of how to utilize that information, but wanting to prevent another loss to the Japanese, the rowing team's management structure was totally reorganized to 4 steering supervisors, 3 area steering superintendents, and 1 assistant superintendent steering manager.
They also implemented a new performance system that would give the 1 person rowing the boat greater incentive to work harder. It was called the 'Rowing Team Quality First Program,' with meetings, dinners, and free pens for the rower There was discussion of getting new paddles, canoes, and other equipment, extra vacation days for practices and bonuses.
The next year the Japanese won by two miles.
Humiliated, the American management laid off the rower for poor performance, halted development of a new canoe, sold the paddles, and canceled all capital investments for new equipment. The money saved was distributed to the Senior Executives as bonuses and the next year's racing team was out-sourced to India.
Sadly, The End.
Here's something else to think about:
GM has spent the last thirty years moving all its factories out of the US, claiming they can't make money paying American wages.
TOYOTA has spent the last thirty years building more than a dozen plants inside the US. The last quarter's results:
TOYOTA makes 4 billion in profits while GM racked up 9 billion in losses.
GM folks are still scratching their heads.
IF THIS WEREN'T TRUE, IT MIGHT BE FUNNY.
A Japanese company ( Toyota ) and an American company (GM)
decided to have a canoe race on the Missouri River. Both teams practiced long and hard to reach their peak performance before the race.
On the big day, the Japanese won by a mile.
The Americans, very discouraged and depressed, decided to investigate the reason for the crushing defeat. A management team made up of senior management was formed to investigate and recommend appropriate action.
Their conclusion was the Japanese had 8 people rowing and 1 person steering, while the American team had 8 people steering and 1 person rowing.
Feeling a deeper study was in order, American management hired a consulting company and paid them a large amount of money for a second opinion.
They advised, of course, that too many people were steering the boat, while not enough people were rowing.
Not sure of how to utilize that information, but wanting to prevent another loss to the Japanese, the rowing team's management structure was totally reorganized to 4 steering supervisors, 3 area steering superintendents, and 1 assistant superintendent steering manager.
They also implemented a new performance system that would give the 1 person rowing the boat greater incentive to work harder. It was called the 'Rowing Team Quality First Program,' with meetings, dinners, and free pens for the rower There was discussion of getting new paddles, canoes, and other equipment, extra vacation days for practices and bonuses.
The next year the Japanese won by two miles.
Humiliated, the American management laid off the rower for poor performance, halted development of a new canoe, sold the paddles, and canceled all capital investments for new equipment. The money saved was distributed to the Senior Executives as bonuses and the next year's racing team was out-sourced to India.
Sadly, The End.
Here's something else to think about:
GM has spent the last thirty years moving all its factories out of the US, claiming they can't make money paying American wages.
TOYOTA has spent the last thirty years building more than a dozen plants inside the US. The last quarter's results:
TOYOTA makes 4 billion in profits while GM racked up 9 billion in losses.
GM folks are still scratching their heads.
IF THIS WEREN'T TRUE, IT MIGHT BE FUNNY.
#40
12-14-2008, 05:39 PM
The management of the Big 3 came up with the $70/ hour figure by taking their TOTAL labor costs and dividing them by the number of hours put in by workers; it includes ALL legacy costs such as health care, pensions, sick days, etc... NO ONE working an assembly line in Detroit is getting a $70/ hour paycheck. The actual amount is $26-$38 per hour, right in line with the transplants in this country. I can't help but wonder how the UAW's health-care coverage compares with that of the non-union auto workers; if the Toyota and Nissan folks here have what I've got at Lowe's, then I feel truly sorry for them (I'm actually afraid to go to the doctor or hospital, as they cover virtually nothing and make you negotiate every single bill my doctors' submit). I would imagine the UAW's is considerably more comprehensive, and therefore more costlier, which certainly adds to the current problems. The overseas manufacturers don't have to face this, as all of the other major industrial nations of the world pick up the cost of health care, and provide better health care with it, as well. But the AMA, Humana, BC-BS and the rest of the health-care industry have scared the bejeesus out of us when it comes to "socialized medicine," which is a whole other story.
I've never been a big fan of unions, but fair is fair; that "$70 an hour" figure is misleading. And while I'm at it, the UAW is not responsible for our overpriced health care, they didn't cause the price of gas to go to $4.00/ gallon (causing Detroit's once super-profitable sales of trucks and SUVs to tank), and the auto workers on those assembly lines shouldn't have to lose their jobs just because of poor management and some rabidly anti-union southern senators. Every time there's been a crisis in Detroit over the past 40 years, the first thing the automakers do is demand concessions from the laborers; where are the concessions from the rest of the "usual suspects?" You know, the CEOS, the board of directors, the vice-presidents, the middle management? Until last week, I don't once ever recall a report of those guys taking a pay cut.
I really wish there was an alternative to this bail-out, but letting the Big 3 just go under will have a hugely detrimental effect on the overall economy. Certain senators have gone on the record that they believe any kind of tax increase right now will prevent us from getting us out of this recession. If they let GM, Ford & Chrysler go down the drain, I wouldn't worry about a tax-induced economic downturn, but a full-blown depression.
I've never been a big fan of unions, but fair is fair; that "$70 an hour" figure is misleading. And while I'm at it, the UAW is not responsible for our overpriced health care, they didn't cause the price of gas to go to $4.00/ gallon (causing Detroit's once super-profitable sales of trucks and SUVs to tank), and the auto workers on those assembly lines shouldn't have to lose their jobs just because of poor management and some rabidly anti-union southern senators. Every time there's been a crisis in Detroit over the past 40 years, the first thing the automakers do is demand concessions from the laborers; where are the concessions from the rest of the "usual suspects?" You know, the CEOS, the board of directors, the vice-presidents, the middle management? Until last week, I don't once ever recall a report of those guys taking a pay cut.
I really wish there was an alternative to this bail-out, but letting the Big 3 just go under will have a hugely detrimental effect on the overall economy. Certain senators have gone on the record that they believe any kind of tax increase right now will prevent us from getting us out of this recession. If they let GM, Ford & Chrysler go down the drain, I wouldn't worry about a tax-induced economic downturn, but a full-blown depression.
That's why for every car/truck built here in the USA $2000.00 is going to the workers/unions package. Think of it...A car/truck that should cost let's say...$19,000...Add to that the costs for employee 'packages'? And now you are up to $21,000. And while the transplants do not get all those perks? Their company can spend that extra $2000 on building a better car/truck, actually showing a profit for it's shareholders, Or they can just build the car/truck for $2,000 less then the ones made by union labor--and further undercut the market share.
People can slice baloney as thin or thick as they want...it's still just baloney.
"Bailouts generally don't work, and this is a huge proposed bailout, and I fear it's just the down payment on more to come next year," Shelby said on the Senate floor Thursday night. "These companies are either already failed or failing, and that's a shame. These aren't the General Motors, Ford and Chrysler I knew."
Corker said the alternative he tried to develop would have provided federal money in exchange for restructuring the companies' debt and making the UAW more competitive in wages with workers at U.S. plants of Japanese competitors.
"Our members wanted to know that the UAW was willing to be competitive," Corker said.
"I basically pleaded with them to give me some language by some date certain that they were competitive with these other companies," Corker said. "That's where it broke down."
Hourly wages for UAW workers at GM factories already are about equal to those paid by Toyota Motor Corp. at its older U.S. factories, according to the companies. GM says the average UAW laborer makes $29.78 per hour, while Toyota -- generally viewed as the main competitor of the Detroit Three -- says it pays about $30 per hour. But the unionized factories have far higher benefit costs.
Corker said the alternative he tried to develop would have provided federal money in exchange for restructuring the companies' debt and making the UAW more competitive in wages with workers at U.S. plants of Japanese competitors.
"Our members wanted to know that the UAW was willing to be competitive," Corker said.
"I basically pleaded with them to give me some language by some date certain that they were competitive with these other companies," Corker said. "That's where it broke down."
Hourly wages for UAW workers at GM factories already are about equal to those paid by Toyota Motor Corp. at its older U.S. factories, according to the companies. GM says the average UAW laborer makes $29.78 per hour, while Toyota -- generally viewed as the main competitor of the Detroit Three -- says it pays about $30 per hour. But the unionized factories have far higher benefit costs.
Union officials also accused the senators of retaliating for the UAW's overwhelming support of Democratic candidates in federal races. The union gave $1.9 million to Democrats but only $11,500 to Republicans in the 2008 election cycle.
Many Democrats support the Employee Free Choice Act, which would take away employers' rights to demand a secret ballot on whether workers will join a union. Instead, workers could form unions by getting a majority of employees to sign a card in support of it.
Many Democrats support the Employee Free Choice Act, which would take away employers' rights to demand a secret ballot on whether workers will join a union. Instead, workers could form unions by getting a majority of employees to sign a card in support of it.
In an effort to help the auto companies get federal aid, the UAW last week offered to delay company payments into a union-run trust fund that will take over retiree health care costs starting in 2010. It also agreed to end the controversial "jobs bank" program in which laid-off workers get most of their pay and benefits after unemployment pay runs out.
And then the Unions, who figured out back in the 70's? The threats of strikes can get what ever they wish from the management. And to "Benefit" the union members? (who must be protected from management greed) Early retirement programs, massive pension programs, Healthcare programs that would make the one Congress gets look like a first aid station, and those idiotic job banks...
S-
(keep a close watch on the democrat party support of the "open union" crap... Without the safeguards of a 'secret ballot'? The average worker can and will be strongarmed into supporting it)
#41
12-14-2008, 05:58 PM
Another Modern Parable(tm):
Baking potatoes the automotive industry way:
How a Honda employee bakes a potato:
Preheat new, high-quality oven to 350 F. Insert Idaho
potato. Go do something productive for 45 minutes. Check for doneness, and then Remove perfectly baked potato from oven and serve.
How a GM employee bakes a potato:
Instruct an Idaho potato supplier to preheat the oven to 350 F. Demand that the supplier show you how he turned the dial to reach 350F, and have him come up with documentation from the oven manufacturer proving that it was calibrated properly. Review documentation, and then have supplier check the temperature using sophisticated temperature probe. Direct supplier to insert potato and set timer for 45 minutes. Have supplier open oven to prove potato has been installed correctly, and request a free study proving that 45 minutes is the ideal time to bake a potato of this size.
Check potato for doneness after 10 minutes. Check potato for doneness after 11 minutes. Check potato for doneness after 12 minutes.
Become impatient with supplier (why is this simple potato taking so long to bake?). Demand status reports every five minutes. Check potato for doneness after 15 minutes...
After 35 minutes, conclude that potato is nearing completion. Congratulate supplier, and then update your boss on all the great work you've done, despite having to work with such an uncooperative supplier. Remove potato from oven after 40 minutes of baking, as a cost savings; without loss of function or quality versus the original 45 minute baking time. Serve potato.
Wonder aloud what on earth those Japanese folks are doing over there to make such good low-cost baked potatoes that people seem to like better than GM potatoes.
Daimler Chrysler's Baked Potatoes:
Design great looking potato. Include sour cream, bacon
bits, chives, and cheese. Bean counters then create MCM
system. Engineers spend 2 years looking for ways to take out sour cream, bacon bits, chives, and cheese. Engineers find cheap imitation chives from Japanese supplier.
Management commands engineers to use expensive, over-engineered German bacon bits to help prop up weak
German suppliers. Sell potato with cheap imitation chives, no sour cream, cheese or expensive German bacon bits.
Potato rots so fast customer swears never to buy another DCX potato.
Ford's Baked Potatoes:
Engineers create plain looking, "everyman" potato. Sold as "green" alternative to French Fries. When micro waved, potato explodes, causing death and injury to customers and bringing end to 100-year potato and butter-supplier relationship, Lawyers flourish. Repair instruction simply state "replace with known good potato."
-------------------------
-blaine
Baking potatoes the automotive industry way:
How a Honda employee bakes a potato:
Preheat new, high-quality oven to 350 F. Insert Idaho
potato. Go do something productive for 45 minutes. Check for doneness, and then Remove perfectly baked potato from oven and serve.
How a GM employee bakes a potato:
Instruct an Idaho potato supplier to preheat the oven to 350 F. Demand that the supplier show you how he turned the dial to reach 350F, and have him come up with documentation from the oven manufacturer proving that it was calibrated properly. Review documentation, and then have supplier check the temperature using sophisticated temperature probe. Direct supplier to insert potato and set timer for 45 minutes. Have supplier open oven to prove potato has been installed correctly, and request a free study proving that 45 minutes is the ideal time to bake a potato of this size.
Check potato for doneness after 10 minutes. Check potato for doneness after 11 minutes. Check potato for doneness after 12 minutes.
Become impatient with supplier (why is this simple potato taking so long to bake?). Demand status reports every five minutes. Check potato for doneness after 15 minutes...
After 35 minutes, conclude that potato is nearing completion. Congratulate supplier, and then update your boss on all the great work you've done, despite having to work with such an uncooperative supplier. Remove potato from oven after 40 minutes of baking, as a cost savings; without loss of function or quality versus the original 45 minute baking time. Serve potato.
Wonder aloud what on earth those Japanese folks are doing over there to make such good low-cost baked potatoes that people seem to like better than GM potatoes.
Daimler Chrysler's Baked Potatoes:
Design great looking potato. Include sour cream, bacon
bits, chives, and cheese. Bean counters then create MCM
system. Engineers spend 2 years looking for ways to take out sour cream, bacon bits, chives, and cheese. Engineers find cheap imitation chives from Japanese supplier.
Management commands engineers to use expensive, over-engineered German bacon bits to help prop up weak
German suppliers. Sell potato with cheap imitation chives, no sour cream, cheese or expensive German bacon bits.
Potato rots so fast customer swears never to buy another DCX potato.
Ford's Baked Potatoes:
Engineers create plain looking, "everyman" potato. Sold as "green" alternative to French Fries. When micro waved, potato explodes, causing death and injury to customers and bringing end to 100-year potato and butter-supplier relationship, Lawyers flourish. Repair instruction simply state "replace with known good potato."
-------------------------
-blaine
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