How did the 460 stack up against the 3 different 455s of GM in the pre emissions era? I am too young to know this, which is why I ask.
Here's a good article about a 1970 Buick Gran Sport with the hi-po Buick engine. They were / are very fast. It blew the doors off a 426 Hemi in the race , reported in the article.
The article also indicates that # 3 on the list for top 50 (domestic) fastest accelerating stock vehicles back then, was the Buick 455 GS.
The Cobra 427FE (no surprise there) was # 1, the Corvette 427 was # 2, the Buick 455 cube was # 3.
Buick has had some powerful engines over the years, but people write them off as old men's cars, or heavy luxo boat sedans (which they are- I've got one) but even basic Buick engines have generally been rich on low and medium range torque to move these heavy beasts and run all the power equipment.
When Buick has put in the effort to race up their engines (particularly the 455 V8 (Stage 1/2/3) and the Buick 90 degree 3.8 V6)...look out...they are very powerful for their size.
The Ford 460 is a very powerful engine, but it didn't really appear until the '60's/early '70's muscle car era died. It was also subject to all the later power sapping emission controls that affected all engines.....so you really can't compare to engines of the earlier era.
But you can compare the forerunner of the 460, which was the 429 (385 series) and it was very powerful...in top hi-po version, a true muscle car engine. Another very powerful engine of that era and one of my favourites was the Ford 428 (FE series) Cobra jet that was rated at 335 hp...very under rated, this was a real terror.
With the 428 and 429 in factory hi po form...these were significant engines and a good match for hi po engines from other makers, IMO.
But the 460 came out same year as the 429 - 1968. The 429 had to be the one with the most Hi-po models then if it wasn't comparable. Thanks for the article like Less.
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Jim "Iron Giant" Fahlin ~ A high performance car is like a guitar, you have to tune it to achieve your best operation and pull ahead of the competition.
Didn't know one was rumoured to come out. Be interesting to know what the possible 2012 T-Bird would be like. I liked the last generation...too bad it fizzled. Beautiful car, IMO.
Yeah it has been a while. After the revived T-Bird was cancelled, they put it up on the shelf. They said they would redo it, and they have referred to 2012 as the Year of the Thunderbird.
The revived Birds were great looking. They were Car of the Year for the first production year. They just didn't advertise it enough.
But the 460 came out same year as the 429 - 1968.You're right an engine for the Lincoln, rated at 365 hp. It didn't become available in other lines till 1972 (T-Bird) 1973 (Mercury, Ford). But in these applications, although a very powerful engine...never was used in a high performance muscle car Fordin the late '60's to the early '70's and by the early '70's muscle cars started to drop hp because of the stringent emission controls, etc.....I never thought about this till your post...but it makes me think if Ford had put a hot 460 Cobra Jet in a Fairlane / Torino in '68-70. It was a very modern engine at this time (new) and if Ford had put in a 460 that was the power equivalent of say the 450/454 LS6 (Chevelle SS)...I think they would of had an incredible hi-po car. I also felt Ford missed the ball, by not putting in a 351/5.4 liter V8 in their Mustang...to counter Chevy putting in the 350 in the Camaro / Firebird. I've always felt that, also I think they should of made a 5.4 available in this generation of the Crown Vic....yes, the 4.6 is a great engine..but think of it with an optional 5.4.
he 429 had to be the one with the most Hi-po models then if it wasn't comparable. I agree.Thanks for the article like Less.
Your welcome, I find Hemmings Musclecar a great magazine, takes me back to my mis-spent youth.
Yeah, the 460 didn't end up in trucks until 1973 also. So its like 1 Hi-po model compared to like what, 7-8 429s?
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Jim "Iron Giant" Fahlin ~ A high performance car is like a guitar, you have to tune it to achieve your best operation and pull ahead of the competition.
Yeah, the 460 didn't end up in trucks until 1973 also. So its like 1 Hi-po model compared to like what, 7-8 429s?
I'm not sure what the ratio is, but as you say...when it came to the 385 Series engine, Ford concentrated their efforts on the 429. I'm a bit surprised that they did, considering around 1970 GM was putting the big blocks into the intermediates. Chevy their 454, Old's 455, Buick's 455 and Pontiac's 455...all 455's from B-O-P were separate divisions' own, individual engines.
Mopar stuffed the 440 B series big block into their hi-po cars.
Given this climate of stuffing the biggest cube engine into your hi-po car....I don't know why Ford didn't follow suit and stick in the 460 ?
I put on many 1000's of miles on a 460 truck engine...E350 dually with 16 to 18 foot box (can't recall which many years ago) and I loved that 460 for it's torque, absolutely dead reliable and durable. A very fine engine.
actually, based on magazine tests, Im not sure you can call it stock, but Hurst used to make Hurst olds cutli that once again gained '10hp' to 380 on the window sticker...and then ran 108 at 12.97 in 68 and 101@13.98 in 69 an over 2 ton car. the next year the W30 ran north of 102 thru the traps at about 4100lbs of GM.
but really fear the chevelle LS6 in 1970 - 108 at 13.44
actually, based on magazine tests, Im not sure you can call it stock, but Hurst used to make Hurst olds cutli that once again gained '10hp' to 380 on the window sticker...and then ran 108 at 12.97 in 68 and 101@13.98 in 69 an over 2 ton car. the next year the W30 ran north of 102 thru the traps at about 4100lbs of GM.
but really fear the chevelle LS6 in 1970 - 108 at 13.44
these numbers are motoring.
Back then a lot of the cars could of done better if the street tires were better. In the '60's street tires didn't get much grip compared to modern tires.
Imagine what some of the times would be, back then, if they had say...drag radials.
And maybe a tire that could handle a little higher turning speed.
__________________
Jim "Iron Giant" Fahlin ~ A high performance car is like a guitar, you have to tune it to achieve your best operation and pull ahead of the competition.
something else to consider - the chevelle and the cutlass were both A-body intermediates. back then there actually were differences in a car, but the weights were within 200lbs. Chevy advertised the LS6 as 450hp gross. Olds the HO as 380hp gross. Thats 70hp difference, but a 108 at 12.97 vs 108 at 13.44 is VERY indicative of identicial HP, and a better traction hookup or driver reaction time. Since the gross to net losses tended to run 60-70hp, we can conclude that in reality both cars would have advertised with no problem at 450 gross, this would put the net about 380-390. pluggin into our calculator, we find at least 403NET hp needed to run 108s, assuming the cars raced at only 4100lbs - given that the formula understates hp for traps >100 mph.
(the reason for the understatement needs advanced math to understand, but is simple - it was derived from taking the acceleration curve and applying it to small slices of an actual run, i.e. from 0-2, 2-4, 4-6mph etc. and integrating. As the trap speed climbs, the rotational inertia of spinning those tires even faster, and the wind resistance effect, is no longer a second order loss but now 1st order, and it climbs with the square of the speed)
and you are right about tires, the old motors advertised 500ft of torque - street tires were not gonna hold this back. A lot of guys shaved well over a second by using pure drag tires over the poly glass or redline tires. If you had 500ft in your turboD truck you would be giddily crapping yourself purple. (which may be a reason why a lot of hotshot guys used have old chevy/GM 1ton+ trucks with 5.7/6.2L diesels removed and ressurected junkyard Olds 455s in them.)
Moral: how much HP your car had back then could only be settled with a christmas tree. the factory literature was as non-fiction as harry potter.
and some more tracks tests - 1966 GTO (one of the sweetest looking cars ever designed by man) with the 389 tripower option at 360 Gross HP. Car and driver said it clocked 105.15 at 14.5. This is a car that would have raced at 3600lbsish. 0-60: an anemic 6.8 seconds. This tells me that after its done burning off tire, it hooks up and the burners kick in.
Contrast if you will to the 1965 Catalina 2+2 with the 421 6 pack rated at 376hp. It ran 0-60 in 3.9seconds. top speeds in these cars were always kinda low (thank god, you want 1960's tires spinning at 150mph?) but this has to do with the fact that wind drag is now the majority limiting factor and face it, they were as aerodynamic as a McDonalds.
some more:
1970 Firechicken T/A ran 103.2 at 14.1 with 345hp, and the formula 400at 330hp ran 98.9 at 14.7
In 1970 the RA 400 and the RAIV 400 were both rated at 345hp. someone was lying.
another of my fav cars: the 73 SD455 TA, advertised as 310net hp, ran 103.6 in 13.8 at at least 3700lbs. (smart money says the low 8.4 compression 455 actually had 370+hp net)
some buick numbers:
66 skylark gran sport (note: gran sport was available trim package on 3 lines, not just the skylark) had a '325' gross hp 401 that ran 95.13 at 14.13 with 3650lbs
the 67 riv with a 360 gross hp 430 and racing at over 4400lbs (what is this a pickup truck?) pulled 86 in the quarter
I dont have any more 1/4 test results for buicks, just 0-60's and top speeds, both of which are unimpressive as most 60's/70's cars were due to size and tires.
and some more tracks tests - 1966 GTO (one of the sweetest looking cars ever designed by man) with the 389 tripower option at 360 Gross HP. Car and driver said it clocked 105.15 at 14.5. This is a car that would have raced at 3600lbsish. 0-60: an anemic 6.8 seconds. This tells me that after its done burning off tire, it hooks up and the burners kick in.
Contrast if you will to the 1965 Catalina 2+2 with the 421 6 pack rated at 376hp. It ran 0-60 in 3.9seconds. top speeds in these cars were always kinda low (thank god, you want 1960's tires spinning at 150mph?) but this has to do with the fact that wind drag is now the majority limiting factor and face it, they were as aerodynamic as a McDonalds.I read somewhere that C+D who got that time on the 421...back then used a hand stop watch and many years later said that might of been on the optimistic side. But even if it is out by part of a second or so...it's still fast. I wonder if the weight of the big Catalina gave it extra traction ?
Being an old guy and from that era...I recall that brakes were pitiful...just pitiful on a lot of fast cars. I had a '67 Camaro RS 327. 4 speed Muncie and while it was no 428 Cobra jet...it could scoot. I recall taking it up to a 110 mph indicated (speedos weren't too accurate either then) and then hammering the brakes. I was alone on a deserted, isolated highway. The brakes worked real good from 110 down to 70...then hardly anything from 70 to 30 mph...then nothing at all from 30 mph down. Yes I know I was a young fool to be going 110....but the 9.5 inch drum brakes on all fours were terrible and unsafe, back then.
some more:
1970 Firechicken T/A ran 103.2 at 14.1 with 345hp, and the formula 400at 330hp ran 98.9 at 14.7
In 1970 the RA 400 and the RAIV 400 were both rated at 345hp. someone was lying.
another of my fav cars: the 73 SD455 TA, advertised as 310net hp, ran 103.6 in 13.8 at at least 3700lbs. (smart money says the low 8.4 compression 455 actually had 370+hp net)
some buick numbers:
66 skylark gran sport (note: gran sport was available trim package on 3 lines, not just the skylark) had a '325' gross hp 401 that ran 95.13 at 14.13 with 3650lbs '70 Buick ranlow 13's @ 104 mphwith the Stage 1 455 in a magazine test back then. The 401 was the old nailhead that had been around in Buick since 1953. I think the new Buick engine ...400, 425 and 455 was introduced in '67. Better performance engine, bigger valves, better heads, etc.
the 67 riv with a 360 gross hp 430 and racing at over 4400lbs (what is this a pickup truck?) pulled 86 in the quarterThe Riv was huge, nice looking but bloated.
I dont have any more 1/4 test results for buicks, just 0-60's and top speeds, both of which are unimpressive as most 60's/70's cars were due to size and tires.
The Buick Gran Sports back then weren't common...they had the image of being plushmobiles....something your dad would drive...in fact back then they were known as 'Doctor's cars'...
Here's something I found that relates some of the Buick 455 Stage 1 performance potential back in '70. I could be wrong, but if I recall the Buick GS was pretty pricey compared to other musclecars and when you're young price means a lot, or it did for me, back then. I think it's from a Buick GS club.
"For 1970 Buick was trying to cover all the bases, it had a small block 350 CID V8 rated at 315 horsepower, a 455 CID V8 rated at an impressive 350 horsepower, and the mighty 455 CID Stage 1 rated at 360 horsepower. The 455 V8 was new to Buick in 1970, it had a monster bore of 4.3125" yet the same 3.90" stroke of the previous year's 400 CID V8. The standard 455 was good for 14 second range 1/4 mile times.
As the 1970 model year began, it soon became apparent that one of the strongest performance contenders was the 1970 GS 455 Stage 1. In fact the greatest shocker was a bone stock 1970 GS 455 Stage 1 as published in the January 1970 issue of Motor Trend magazine completed the 1/4 mile in an earth shattering 13.38 seconds at 105.5 mph. The 1/4 mile time was so impressive Motor Trend at the time called the 1970 Buick GS 455 Stage 1 the fastest muscle car they ever tested. As a comparison Motor Trend magazine in its September 1969 issue obtained a 13.78 second 1/4 mile time for the legendary 1970 Plymouth Cuda (426 Hemi with 425 horsepower). Even the highest horsepower rated muscle car in the golden era - the Chevelle SS LS6 454 (450 horsepower) in most magazine tests back in the day recorded slower 1/4 mile times than the Motor Trend 1970 GS Stage 1 time. As an example Car & Driver magazine around this time obtained a 13.8 second 1/4 mile time with a 1970 Chevelle SS LS6. Car Craft magazine (11/69), did however move a Chevelle SS LS6 down the 1/4 mile at a lightening quick 13.12 seconds. Getting back to the GS, the performance of the Stage 1 is even more impressive when you consider the GS's curb weight is a heavy 3,800 lbs. Back in the day, it did not take a genius to realize Buick's 360 horsepower rating for the Stage 1 455 was very underrated.
70gs2.jpgThe Stage 1 455 received its power from high performance heads, a high performance Rochester Quadrajet carburetor, a hot cam, a high performance distributor, and bigger valves. And sitting on top of this wonderful motor, there was a decorative air filter assembly with two attached foam boxes that sucked in cold air from two hood flaps. The hood flaps were opened once the motor warmed up. Not only was the Stage 1 loaded with horsepower, its 510 lbs/ft of torque was enough to uproot large trees. Buick would continue the Stage 1 455 option through the 1973 model year on the GS, but after 1970 horsepower would drastically decline.
Buick also introduced a GTO Judge type version of the GS in the middle of the 1970 model year - the Buick GSX. The GSX was a GS with a wild paint scheme, stripes and new front/rear spoilers. The GSX was clearly marketed to the younger crowd. There were only two engine options available for the 1970 GSX - the 455 and the 455 Stage 1. The GSX would last two more years, being laid to rest at the end of the 1972 model year.
Buick certainly made muscle car history in 1970. As good as it got in 1970 for Buick, sadly only a little over 3,000 1970 Stage 1 455 V8s were produced. For 1970 only the Buick GS and GSX could be ordered with the Stage 1 455. As the 1970s progressed Buick went back to its roots of making cars for the older more conservative crowd. Buick would only repeat its 1970 reign at the top again a little more than 15 years later with the 1986 - 1987 Buick SFI turbo 3.8 liter V6 Grand National. As the old saying goes - "he who laughs last, laughs best", Buick must have had one heck of a good laugh as the high compression muscle car era came to a close for GM in 1970 while it was on top."
The main reason 1970 was the peak model year for GM performance was that compression ratios were lowered for 1971. GM management wanted an environmental "image", so all 1971 GM passenger cars would run on the "new" unleaded gasoline, four model years before catalytic converters.
I finally read the Ol' blue article Less. Haha that is awsome, hemi was sent packing! Buick's stage one is pretty wicked.
__________________
Jim "Iron Giant" Fahlin ~ A high performance car is like a guitar, you have to tune it to achieve your best operation and pull ahead of the competition.
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