Handy when we take trips with our kids, sister in law, and mother & father in law.
Inlaws on a trip? Isn't that incentive to get a smaller car?
__________________ -Ken
If you need to get in touch with me email me at ftsservice at gmail dot com or via AOL IM: motorhavenken. The best is yet to come....
The point is that most people drive the majority of their miles on the highway. Even if they don't, the hybrid isn't cost-effective.
The majority of miles non-freight is city-miles. The EPA uses 55% as the city mileage amount. Remember, that includes people who don't live in cities. For people who live in urban areas the percentage of city miles is probably much, much higher. My wife's driving is near 95% city.
__________________ -Ken
If you need to get in touch with me email me at ftsservice at gmail dot com or via AOL IM: motorhavenken. The best is yet to come....
...many hybrid owners add plug-in conversions (very inexpensive) that makes the car almost all electric. Some of the folks on the green hybrid forums get 50 to 80+ mpg in their city commutes with this simple change.
That's like claiming an all electric car gets infinite mileage per gallon...
it has no numerical significance. Miles per dollar would be useable.
Also keep in mind, when folks are on their third hybrid (and 5th set of batts)
I'll probably still be driving my Powerstroke Excursion.
And, If I use vegetable oil, my economy will be almost infinitely better
than the hybrid.
There is a reason I don't quickly adopt new technologies.
Take a look at the Saturn CVT class action lawsuit. When my wife
suggested a Saturn with one, I said I don't trust the CVT - too unproven.
The 7.3L Powerstroke is still preferred over the 6.0L.
As an engineer, I know that new designs need time for the problems
to emerge. No matter how carefully design, there are always
unforseen issues (sometimes unexpected benefits too).
But the hybrid design is limitted by physics. Once people become
realists and acknowledge those limitations, better technologies will
be able to progress. Right now, too much effort is wasted on
hybrid technology - a technology which is doomed by physics.
Also keep in mind, when folks are on their third hybrid (and 5th set of batts)
I'll probably still be driving my Powerstroke Excursion.
But the hybrid design is limitted by physics. Once people become
realists and acknowledge those limitations, better technologies will
be able to progress. Right now, too much effort is wasted on
hybrid technology - a technology which is doomed by physics.
I'm only on my second hybrid so I guess when I buy my third I'll realize you are right? In all seriousness though, there have been almost NO battery failures in the Escapes and those being run as taxis in NYC are really racking up the miles. I'd be willing to bet that the percentage of battery failures in the hybrids is no worse than the percentage of failures in the PSD or the transmissions attached to them. In the meantime, unless Ford goes belly up, I am 6+ years and over 100,000 miles from my battery packs being out of warranty.
As for Laws of Physics, it isn't about breaking them but about using them to your advantage. The hybrids emphasize the electric motors from a stopwhere torque demand is hghest and electric motors are at their best. This allows the gas engine to be detuned (the Atkinson Cycle) somewhat for better efficiency at all speeds. They regenerate when braking to recharge the battery - utilizing energy that would otherwise be converted to heat. I could continue but I'm sure the deniers have stopped reading by now anyway.
And finally (I know, I said that before), how many here will dismiss the fuel cell car (if it ever happens) as a "fad" and say it is only holding up better technologies? As far as I am concerned, hybrid technology IS the best there is available to me right now. If something comes around in a year, two years or 10 years that makes the hybrids I own obsolete, you can bet that I'll be there buying one. For now though, as far as I am concerned, the traditional stand-alone internal combustion engine is obsolete.
That's like claiming an all electric car gets infinite mileage per gallon...
it has no numerical significance. Miles per dollar would be useable.
Power costs off the grid are a lot less expensive than their gas bills... a LOT less. Many examples on green hybrid.
Quote:
Also keep in mind, when folks are on their third hybrid (and 5th set of batts)
How do you know? Do you have longevity stats for it?
Quote:
I'll probably still be driving my Powerstroke Excursion.
If they will be on their 5th set of batteries (that's 750,000 miles) then you'll be on your 5th transmission and 2nd engine, and plus the death wobble issue. Excursions/Super Duties are stout vehicles, but they are far from perfect, and they are not cheap to buy, fuel, maintain or repair.
Quote:
And, If I use vegetable oil, my economy will be almost infinitely better
than the hybrid.
Only if your time processing WVO is worthless. What's your wage when broken down by time?
Quote:
There is a reason I don't quickly adopt new technologies.
Take a look at the Saturn CVT class action lawsuit. When my wife
suggested a Saturn with one, I said I don't trust the CVT - too unproven.
The 7.3L Powerstroke is still preferred over the 6.0L.
Plenty of class actions have been thrown at Ford, for technology which should have been proven. Tires, spark plugs, etc. You think the death wobble issue with the Super Duty/Excursion line is something they should have addressed? Its not like steering is new technology.
Quote:
As an engineer, I know that new designs need time for the problems
to emerge. No matter how carefully design, there are always
unforseen issues (sometimes unexpected benefits too).
That applies to your Excursion as well. Take a look at the number of TSBs if you doubt it.
Quote:
But the hybrid design is limitted by physics. Once people become
realists and acknowledge those limitations, better technologies will
be able to progress. Right now, too much effort is wasted on
hybrid technology - a technology which is doomed by physics.
Its not doomed. Internal combustion loses more energy to heat than a hybrid does converting chemical -> electrical -> mechanical. And the energy from regenerative braking is essentially free, since it would otherwise be wasted to heat and breakdown of the pad surface.
There are plenty of articles on both sides of the isle.
__________________ -Ken
If you need to get in touch with me email me at ftsservice at gmail dot com or via AOL IM: motorhavenken. The best is yet to come....
Only if your time processing WVO is worthless. What's your wage when broken down by time?
There is not much processing involved. Obtaining it is time consuming, storing it
can be inconvenient (unless you live in the country) but processing is simply a matter of filtering it.
It's not as convenient as conventional diesel - there is one system which uses a seperate tank
for the veggie oil, so when it's not available diesel can be used as normally.
Quote:
Originally Posted by FTE Ken
That applies to your Excursion as well. Take a look at the number of TSBs if you doubt it.
Maybe the issue is new car quality &/or complexity. But I hear of far more high mileage diesels than hybrids.
Quote:
Originally Posted by FTE Ken
Hybrid Technology is not doomed. Internal combustion loses more energy to heat than a hybrid does converting chemical -> electrical -> mechanical. And the energy from regenerative braking is essentially free, since it would otherwise be wasted to heat and breakdown of the pad surface.
Hybrids use internal combustion to create mechanical energy before they incur the losses
associated with transition of that energy to electrical, chemical, electrical and back to mechanical.
Regenerative braking could be used on non-hybrids, but would be of limitted use for them.
Hybrids have had a few years to evolve, and still are not impressive when compared
to high tech diesel technologies:
One technology not explored is flywheel storage.
This stores mechanical energy as mechanical energy in a bank of flywheels.
There are frictional losses, but those can be reduced quite a bit with current
technologies, and more with future technologies (e.g. a flywheel run in a vacuum
with electromagnetic bearings).
Additionally, many hybrid owners add plug-in conversions (very inexpensive) that makes the car almost all electric. Some of the folks on the green hybrid forums get 50 to 80+ mpg in their city commutes with this simple change, saving money because power from the grid is far less expensive than generating it while driving. Concerning mileage, note the case above where the Escape hybid owner is getting 38 mpg... it'll pay off for him.
Good point, but nearly all of the electricity in the metropolitan areas still arrives from Coal. Electricity costs about $.19 per KwHr when you include transmission fees and taxes (www.eia.doe.gov). 1.5 pounds of CO2/kilowatt-hour is released (www.vtearthinstitute.org). Compare this with 17 lbs CO2/gallon of gasoline (www.vtearthinstitute.org) and 10 Killowatt Hours of elctricity can be generated per gallon of gas (www.homesteadtechnology.com)
So to plug your car in to save on gas costs you $1.90 per 10Killowatt-hour in elctricity and generates 15 pounds of CO2 as opposed to using 1 gallon of gas to charge the batteries at $2.50/gal (today) and generates 17 pounds of CO2.
Your savings based on a 40 mile trip (40 mpg) is a whopping 60 cents and saves 2 pounds of CO2.
I can't see the savings of buying the "Plug-in" option.
Doug
__________________
2000 Excursion Limited 4X4
V-10, 90,000 miles
2008 Tow Mirrors, 2007 F-450 front end, Blistein shocks, Draw-Tite front receiver.
Good point, but nearly all of the electricity in the metropolitan areas still arrives from Coal. Electricity costs about $.19 per KwHr when you include transmission fees and taxes (www.eia.doe.gov). 1.5 pounds of CO2/kilowatt-hour is released (www.vtearthinstitute.org). Compare this with 17 lbs CO2/gallon of gasoline (www.vtearthinstitute.org) and 10 Killowatt Hours of elctricity can be generated per gallon of gas (www.homesteadtechnology.com)
So to plug your car in to save on gas costs you $1.90 per 10Killowatt-hour in elctricity and generates 15 pounds of CO2 as opposed to using 1 gallon of gas to charge the batteries at $2.50/gal (today) and generates 17 pounds of CO2.
Your savings based on a 40 mile trip (40 mpg) is a whopping 60 cents and saves 2 pounds of CO2.
I can't see the savings of buying the "Plug-in" option.
Doug
If I had an, as GM refers to it, E-REV (Extended-Range Electric Vehicle) or better known as a plug-in hybrid, I would not be using my home's power outlets to charge it. I would have solar panels to charge it. Besides the cost of the solar panels, it would basically be free to run a Volt or similar vehicle. From what I've heard, when the Chevorlet Volt comes out, GM plans on offering solar panels that can be placed on the car to charge the batteries as an accessory. Sounds good if you ask me.
Your savings based on a 40 mile trip (40 mpg) is a whopping 60 cents and saves 2 pounds of CO2.
I can't see the savings of buying the "Plug-in" option.
Doug
An additional $2500 savings every 100,000 miles isn't significant? It is to me.
__________________ -Ken
If you need to get in touch with me email me at ftsservice at gmail dot com or via AOL IM: motorhavenken. The best is yet to come....
There is not much processing involved. Obtaining it is time consuming, storing it
can be inconvenient (unless you live in the country) but processing is simply a matter of filtering it.
I meant the entire process, from obtaining sources, retrieving it, building the processor, etc. For bio-diesel there is the added time of processing since there is more involved than straight WVO.
Quote:
Maybe the issue is new car quality &/or complexity. But I hear of far more high mileage diesels than hybrids.
1. More diesels on the road.
2. You aren't reading the hybrid forums.
Quote:
Hybrids use internal combustion to create mechanical energy before they incur the losses
associated with transition of that energy to electrical, chemical, electrical and back to mechanical.
Only on the highway. That's why their mileage isn't as high on the highway. In city driving the bulk of electrical energy is provided through reclaiming energy during braking, not from internal combustion.
Quote:
Regenerative braking could be used on non-hybrids, but would be of limitted use for them.
By definition that would make them a hybrid, whether that is an electric hybrid, fly-wheel hybrid or Ford unreleased hydraulic compression hybrid.
Quote:
Hybrids have had a few years to evolve, and still are not impressive when compared to high tech diesel technologies:
Comparing a 15 million dollar car and a one of a kind high-end concept race car against current, on the road, consumer priced hybrids on the road already? A more viable comparison would be technology about to go in production for Ford cars and trucks: ecoboost.
Quote:
One technology not explored is flywheel storage.
This stores mechanical energy as mechanical energy in a bank of flywheels.
There are frictional losses, but those can be reduced quite a bit with current
technologies, and more with future technologies (e.g. a flywheel run in a vacuum
with electromagnetic bearings).
Its been looked at since the 1960s but has several inherant problems:
1. Capuring the energy requires very high speed fly wheels. Its extremely expensive, and without extremely hi-strength casing it represents a risk in the case of an accident. (Incidently, its one of the reasons turbine engines aren't used, GM had a turbine concept in the 1960s and the same risks prevented it going any further than that.)
2. Fly wheels storing that much kinetic energy (whether through hi-speed low weight or lower speed higher weight) are gyroscopes and resist changing their plane. Great in a straight line but when you want to turn the fly wheel wants to continue going straight.
Hydraulic storage hybrids for heavy vehicles is probably a viable technology. Ford has demostrated it, and its use for buses and other heavy vehicles which do lot of stop and go driving is extremely positive. The hydraulic pressure generated during braking is used to get the vehicle moving back up to speed (which is where diesels really suffer when it comes to mileage).
__________________ -Ken
If you need to get in touch with me email me at ftsservice at gmail dot com or via AOL IM: motorhavenken. The best is yet to come....
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-Ken
