Ok, I'll make my case, and everyone can decide from there.
Each gallon of gasoline or diesel that I buy for street use, even for gasoline for my lawn mower, generator, practice fuel for the race bike, etc., all have road taxes applied to them.
Each should consider contacting their representative to ensure that plug in electric vehicle pay road taxes also. I don't feel that I should bear the burden of maintaining and building roads for their vehicles...unless they'd like to make their own roads.
Each gallon of gasoline or diesel that I buy for street use, even for gasoline for my lawn mower, generator, practice fuel for the race bike, etc., all have road taxes applied to them.
Each should consider contacting their representative to ensure that plug in electric vehicle pay road taxes also. I don't feel that I should bear the burden of maintaining and building roads for their vehicles...unless they'd like to make their own roads.
This is an extension of an issue we're going to have to address sooner or later anyway. Even if plug in electric vehicles never come to fruition, as fuel economy increases, we'll wind up using less fossil fuel with the result that road tax receipts will decrease on a per vehicle basis. Assuming that there isn't some huge breakthrough that allows us to maintain roads much less expensively, we'll have to either increase the tax rate per gallon of fuel, charge more tolls, increase registration fees, decrease maintenance, or do some combination of the above.
If and when plug-in vehicles become a significant percentage of the fleet, we'll absolutely have to address how to charge for their access to the roads.
[color=blue][b]Based on the current $3.00 gallon gas prices, the gas model rated at 17 mpg in city driving -- the extra $10,000 I would pay for the Hybrid will take me 56,667 miles on 3,333 gallons of gasoline right off the bat in the gas model.
I own a heavy ass Super Duty... and the urge to slam people who buy these, well its human nature. But I can't make blanket statements like so many others here do. Maybe it makes you feel better about driving a fuel guzzling barge like mine by making fun of people who don't... but do the math.
VaSheriff laughs because the break even point (not including the credit) is 56,667 miles. Well, from that point forward the hybrid owner is laughing all the way to the bank. If he puts 170,000 miles on his hybrid he has saved $20K over the non-hybrid model.
I know some folks with hybrids and I can assure not everyone buys them for some sort of fashion statement. Besides, its funny when people laugh at fashion conscious people who bought hybrids... because so many people bought huge trucks and suvs for the same exact reason, and those are the type who now regret it (secretly or not).
Me... I've been a truck guy for a long time, from old beaters to performance trucks, Rangers to Super Duties... my sense of fashion... sneakers, t-shirts and blue jeans kind of guy.
__________________ -Ken
If you need to get in touch with me email me at ftsservice at gmail dot com or via AOL IM: motorhavenken. The best is yet to come....
Each gallon of gasoline or diesel that I buy for street use, even for gasoline for my lawn mower, generator, practice fuel for the race bike, etc., all have road taxes applied to them.
Each should consider contacting their representative to ensure that plug in electric vehicle pay road taxes also. I don't feel that I should bear the burden of maintaining and building roads for their vehicles...unless they'd like to make their own roads.
Smokers pay hefty taxes that go into health care funds that provide for not only smokers, but non-smokers. 40% of the people in this country don't pay Federal income taxes. There are plenty of other examples of taxes like this.
Now in the case of vehicles the tax you pay is based on your fuel consumption. If your consumption is zero, so are the taxes. Are you going to complain about someone driving a Taurus not paying as much as you do with your Excursion? I doubt it. I'd say its good incentive to reduce consumption without force from the government because its basically your choice.
__________________ -Ken
If you need to get in touch with me email me at ftsservice at gmail dot com or via AOL IM: motorhavenken. The best is yet to come....
VaSheriff laughs because the break even point (not including the credit) is 56,667 miles. Well, from that point forward the hybrid owner is laughing all the way to the bank. If he puts 170,000 miles on his hybrid he has saved $20K over the non-hybrid model.
Doesn't the Hybrid owner have to start saving for an expensive battery replacement after 10 years or so? I don't intend to be mean, but I'm just asking.
According many articles on hybrid forums, and industry press releases and articles the batteries in the average hybrid should last about 200,000 miles. In 2000 it cost about $10,000 to replace the batteries in the average hybrid. In 2005 the cost to replace batteries in an Escape Hybrid cost about $7200.
Let's assume the downward cost of batteries continues and in 5 years it will be $5000 to replace the batteries.
Escape Hybrid, 27 city mpg, 200,000 miles at $3 per gallon, assuming the driver puts these miles on the vehicle over 8 years:
$22,222.22 fuel costs
$ 5,000.00 battery replacement
$-3,000.00 tax credit
---------------------
$24,222.22 total
Escape, 17 city mpg, 200,000 miles at $3 per gallon, assuming the driver puts these miles on the vehicle over 8 years:
$35,294.11 total
Savings: $11,071.89
Don't forget there are other small savings with a hybrid. Because it uses power generation for the brakes there is much less wear and tear on the braking system. That's a few hundred dollars more saved.
About "toxic" waste.... the manufacturers have programs in place for recycling for reclaiming materials from the batteries. Let's look at emissions... the EPA average for CO2 emissions is 2421 grams per gallon or 5.337 pounds. The hybrid Escape will put out 39533.33 pounds of CO2 into the air over the course of 200,000 miles. The non-hybrid Escape will put out 62788.23 pounds of CO2 into the air over the course of 200,000 miles.
Rather than blasting early adopters of hybrids, I'm all for it. Why? Because just like other technology (flat screen TVs for example) early adopters assorb the bulk of the development costs, helping to drive down prices for those who buy when the technology matures. If in another 5 years we can get full size hybrid trucks and suvs for only $5000 more than a non-hybrid the savings of a hybrid will become even more significant.
So, in closing, I guess you could say hybrids are a joke... but in many cases the punch line is on the non-hybrid owners, not the hybrid owners.
__________________ -Ken
If you need to get in touch with me email me at ftsservice at gmail dot com or via AOL IM: motorhavenken. The best is yet to come....
you are all forgetting the simple fact of the "population bomb". Dosn't matter if we DOUBLE or TRIPLE or QUADRUPLE the gas mileage of our transportation.
Here's the simple fact none of you apparently want to deal with. Indians and Chinese have become industrial nations. That means they are developing a middle class. They have 10 - 20 - maybe 100 people to our one. And their females are breeding like rats.
Dosnt take a mathmatician to see they will want cars, boats, airplanes in numbers far greater than any technology improvement in fuel burn can possibly provide.
My recommendation ?
ALCOHOL... ( NO NO..dont waste it by running your vehicle on it....DRINK it ! )
Indians and Chinese have become industrial nations. That means they are developing a middle class. They have 10 - 20 - maybe 100 people to our one. And their females are breeding like rats.
The only hybrid owners I make fun of are the ones going 90 mph down the freeway then go into my husbands work complaining that they arent getting good gas mileage!!!
About "toxic" waste.... the manufacturers have programs in place for recycling for reclaiming materials from the batteries. Let's look at emissions... the EPA average for CO2 emissions is 2421 grams per gallon or 5.337 pounds. The hybrid Escape will put out 39533.33 pounds of CO2 into the air over the course of 200,000 miles. The non-hybrid Escape will put out 62788.23 pounds of CO2 into the air over the course of 200,000 miles.
Are you saying that one gallon of gas that weighs about 8 pounds produces over 5 pounds of CO2 when used?
__________________
2005 Ex Limited V-10
Upstate NY "Yes Ma'am. It's a hybrid. It's the new Prius SUV."
The only hybrid owners I make fun of are the ones going 90 mph down the freeway then go into my husbands work complaining that they arent getting good gas mileage!!!
Oh, that's funny! I guess they didn't understand that hybrids really aren't meant for high-speed or long highway trips, as far as mileage goes. The savings go downhill fast (no pun intended). Great for city commuters, taxi cab drivers, delivery people, etc. Many newer cab fleets (from the "better" cab companies that aren't buying run down auctioned police Crown Vics, you know the type) are buying hybrids because the savings add up quick for them, especially if they normally spend a lot of time idling.
__________________ -Ken
If you need to get in touch with me email me at ftsservice at gmail dot com or via AOL IM: motorhavenken. The best is yet to come....
Are you saying that one gallon of gas that weighs about 8 pounds produces over 5 pounds of CO2 when used?
Sorry, I actually got it wrong, copied from the wrong column. A gallon of gas has a little over 5 pounds of carbon. The CO2 emissions are actually closer to 19.4 pounds:
Here's the EPA's formula:
CO2 emissions from a gallon of gasoline = 2,421 grams x 0.99 x (44/12) = 8,788 grams = 8.8 kg/gallon = 19.4 pounds/gallon
The oxygen is not only heavier than the carbon (atomic weight of 15.9994 verses 12.0107), with two of the combining for every carbon molecule we're looking at more than tripling the weight. Keep in mind this is only the CO2 emissions weight. There's also NOx, SOx, CO, etc.
__________________ -Ken
If you need to get in touch with me email me at ftsservice at gmail dot com or via AOL IM: motorhavenken. The best is yet to come....
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-Ken
