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Old 08-19-2008, 02:21 PM
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Question Has anyone made jelly?

How did it happen and what do I do with this stuff

I had previously made a 25 gal (95l) batch that didnt convert properly. I think its because I got in a hurry and didnt add the methoxide at a SLOW and steady rate. Instead, I let the methoxide sit for half the time I usually do (this time 4 hours) and then fed it into the processor at full throttle

I'm using NaOh, 3.5g base
20% methanol
2.5 hour processing time in the reactor.

I still have the 5 gallon buckets sitting around with some chunks of jelly in them and a skin layer on top.

What would you all suggest?
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Old 08-19-2008, 04:04 PM
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BTW;

I processed at 130F


I looked at the methoxide lines and container and NO residue NaOh

And the jelly is the color of Bio Diesel and is suspended in the Bio Diesel layer
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Old 08-19-2008, 09:28 PM
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Could I have made Bio Diesel soap?

Today I went back to the drum I got the oil from and took a few cups and put it on the burner. I would say it looked as if it boiled when I heated it. Is this the water in the WVO thats bubbling?
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Old 08-19-2008, 10:35 PM
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I see 2 problems here. #1. Your base should be 5.5, not 3.5. #2. The bubbles you see are steam, and you have "suspended" water in the oil which will require MORE NaOH. All in all, underacted batch. What was the Titration?
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Old 08-19-2008, 11:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fabmandelux View Post
I see 2 problems here. #1. Your base should be 5.5, not 3.5. #2. The bubbles you see are steam, and you have "suspended" water in the oil which will require MORE NaOH. All in all, underacted batch. What was the Titration?
Thanks for the help,

My previous "larger" batches (25gl/95L) had been hit and miss with the 27/3 but had missed and bubbler washed great. I thought KOH was 5.5 and NaOh was 3.5 base. I will still up the NaOh like you pointed out for future batches and look for better results.

The average titration was 9.8 with a standard deviation of .2 over 5 titrations of the same oil.

The oil boiled just like water does, just smaller bubbles than water has. I have about 50 gallons of this WVO, what would you suggest I do with it?

And let me guess, the jelly batch is dead Its fairly lumpy.
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Old 08-20-2008, 12:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Az.scarecrow View Post
Thanks for the help,

My previous "larger" batches (25gl/95L) had been hit and miss with the 27/3 but had missed and bubbler washed great. I thought KOH was 5.5 and NaOh was 3.5 base. I will still up the NaOh like you pointed out for future batches and look for better results.

The average titration was 9.8 with a standard deviation of .2 over 5 titrations of the same oil.

The oil boiled just like water does, just smaller bubbles than water has. I have about 50 gallons of this WVO, what would you suggest I do with it?

And let me guess, the jelly batch is dead Its fairly lumpy.
The 3.5 gram/ltr Base is from the JTF site, and has been proven to be low. I use 6 Gms NaOH/Ltr base on my virgin canola oil. The base for KOH is 7.8with the 90% KOH that I buy. If you haven't tried using KOH you should. It mixes much better, and faster, produces less soap, and produces a liquid glycerol that is much easier to deal with.

Heating oil will not produce any bubbles below about 450 deg F UNLESS there is water present. This "suspended" water will combine with the Lye ( either KOH or NaOH) and result in undereacted bio, and excess soap. Also know as "glop" or "jelly" as you call it. That batch is probably junk..........The rest of the oil you have should be put in your reactor, and heated to remove the suspended water.
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Old 08-20-2008, 01:09 AM
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Old 08-20-2008, 01:12 AM
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I use 5 as a base for NaOH and 8 for KOH. I usually let another flake or 2 sneak in for good measure.

how hot are you getting your oil to dewater it? the water will not even start to come out until you get the oil up to 212. I usually heat it up to 280-300.
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Old 08-20-2008, 07:18 AM
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How do you get your oil that hot? what type of container are you using? What type of heater/element are you using?
scarecrow stated above that he did not let the methoxide sit? is this necessary? i mix my methanol and KOH for about 15 min making sure it is fully dissolved, then slowly feed it in, but i am having reaction problems.
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Old 08-20-2008, 08:39 AM
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Thanks again for your guys helpfull suggestions!



Quote:
Originally Posted by fabmandelux View Post
The 3.5 gram/ltr Base is from the JTF site, and has been proven to be low. I use 6 Gms NaOH/Ltr base on my virgin canola oil. The base for KOH is 7.8with the 90% KOH that I buy. If you haven't tried using KOH you should. It mixes much better, and faster, produces less soap, and produces a liquid glycerol that is much easier to deal with.
I have tried the KOH, infact all the 1 litre test batching I did along with the 3-5 gallon batches were all made with KOH. After changing to NaOh (for cost and availability reasons) I did notice some differences. For instance the mixing time for the methoxide.


Quote:
Originally Posted by fabmandelux View Post
The rest of the oil you have should be put in your reactor, and heated to remove the suspended water.
Cool, I'll load it up!
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Old 08-20-2008, 08:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by empiretc View Post
I use 5 as a base for NaOH and 8 for KOH. I usually let another flake or 2 sneak in for good measure.

how hot are you getting your oil to dewater it? the water will not even start to come out until you get the oil up to 212. I usually heat it up to 280-300.
Dewater?

I had yet to dewater a batch because I hadnt had a problem with water up untill now. Now that I lost a batch due to water, I'll be paying alot more attention to it. My water heater element is hooked up to 240 electric so I will see how hot she could get.

Do you think I have a good chance of evaporating the moisture out of the 3/4" vent line thats at the top of my processor?

Thank you for your help.
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Old 08-20-2008, 08:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TxFordGuy View Post
scarecrow stated above that he did not let the methoxide sit? is this necessary? i mix my methanol and KOH for about 15 min making sure it is fully dissolved, then slowly feed it in, but i am having reaction problems.
In the past I would prepare the NaOh methoxide the night before and not use it untill the next morning. This time I happen to make "glop", the solution only sat for aprox 4 hours. I shook the container every 10-15 min., so it should have been ready.

After doing on-line research and seeing fabmandelux post, I belive the water is my issue.
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Old 08-20-2008, 10:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Az.scarecrow View Post
In the past I would prepare the NaOh methoxide the night before and not use it untill the next morning.
that is not a good idea at all. I tried it because someone recommended it, and it was just not right. The lye didn't complete dissolve and I didn't get a very complete reaction.

I use 2- 5 gallon jugs and put the lye in. Then i pour the methanol in and swirl a little, opening the lid every now and then to relieve pressure. It gets hot enough that the lye gets completely dissolved. Then I pump it into the processor (while it's running). The oil will be at 130 when i start pumping in the methoxide and it will reach 140 after all the methoxide is added. Yeah, the stuff is that hot.

Dewatering is very important unless you are getting your oil straight from a hot fryer! If it sits outside in a barrel, it will get water. remember, water boils at 212, so you need to get the oil hotter than that to get all the water out.
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Old 08-20-2008, 11:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by empiretc View Post
that is not a good idea at all. I tried it because someone recommended it, and it was just not right. The lye didn't complete dissolve and I didn't get a very complete reaction.

I use 2- 5 gallon jugs and put the lye in. Then i pour the methanol in and swirl a little, opening the lid every now and then to relieve pressure. It gets hot enough that the lye gets completely dissolved. Then I pump it into the processor (while it's running). The oil will be at 130 when i start pumping in the methoxide and it will reach 140 after all the methoxide is added. Yeah, the stuff is that hot.

Dewatering is very important unless you are getting your oil straight from a hot fryer! If it sits outside in a barrel, it will get water. remember, water boils at 212, so you need to get the oil hotter than that to get all the water out.
Right on.

Ya, the methoxide does get hot and I too burp the jug because I fear it blowing the lid off.

I'll load the processor back up and see how hot she gets, I'm just not to sure if I could get the moisture out thru the 3/4" vent tube. But I'll give it a shot. I may try pumping air thru the vent and out the pressure relief valve in an attempt to dewater..
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Old 08-20-2008, 11:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Az.scarecrow View Post
I'll load the processor back up and see how hot she gets, I'm just not to sure if I could get the moisture out thru the 3/4" vent tube.
It should steam like a tea pot. I put a 4" fill/vent hole on the top of my processor. I watch the oil to see the water bubbling up in the sight gauge and the steam will just pour out.

I will heat is as long as needed until there is no more steam (that's the water). I can usually completely dewater the oil in a little over 2 hours.

It might take you longer with a 3/4" vent and your heat source.

good luck
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Old 08-20-2008, 11:53 AM
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