Transmission/Axle for towing?

[David85]

Thats the nice thing about building something yourself. You know its done right. If I own something that breaks at my hand, it gets fixed so I can't break it anymore or at the very least so that its easier to repair next time.

[Pele]

Originally Posted by Dave Sponaugle

That is the same way I build something.

Besides, you just never know when the urge to jump on the book shelf will hit.

I have days like that.

I call that too lazy to get the ladder.

So I'll keep the ZF and figure out a way to mate the 6.9 up to it with a sprung clutch disk.

[Pele]

Here's a new thought:

Anyone ever put an Allison 1000 series slushbox in an F350?

I know that's got a LOT of electronics. Are the electronics available separately for use with a purely mechanical diesel like our IDI's or perhaps a Cummins 12valve? Do they have a limp mode where it'll work without the electronics?

Allison 1000 supposedly has a good reputation for reliability and being heavy duty.

I just never wanna have to push this truck. Pushing a Ranger is hard enough.

[SWMO F-350]

My 91 F-350 with a 5 speed and 4.10 gears does pretty good pulling this large load.The tractor on the trailer is my Oliver 1950 pulling tractor that weighs 13,000 lbs without me on it.

I'm probably weighing around 26,000 lbs here.Once I get it rolling I can run 60-70 mph in 5th on a level hiway.Most of the time I just use 4th and run 55-60 mph.The truck has 165,000 on it.

[Dodge/Cummins]

I personally don't think the Allison 1000 5 or 6 speed is that wonderfull.
It might be the best of the pick-up auto trannies though.
The "real" Allisons are A LOT stronger and more durable.
There are adapters to mount it to your IDI and stand alone computers though, just don't know who made them.
I'm with SWMO F-350, you can't beat a manual, as far as I'm concerned.

[David85]

For the cost in adapting a stock allsion transmission, you could get an aftermarket built up E4OD that is probably stronger without the cost of adapting the transmission to the engine.

All the transmissions out their have their quirks some are worse than others, but the aftermarket seems to be the best source for something that can survive in the real world. Although the BW T18/19 seems to be the exception to that rule....

The allison 1000 is really just another auto tranny with a badge on the side. It, like most other automatics, had teething problems when it first came out so the name isn't worth much. The ford torqshift is already serving well after being on the roads for a few years now.

[Pele]

Damn...

This was said about the Ford slushboxes at another forum I'm on:

I've never appreciated the powdered-epoxy gears in the E4 at all. Couple that to the tiny Overrun clutch that comes into play in a forced 4-3 downshift (kickdown) and it's failure prone at the best.

Upshifts are usually crisp and not slide-y at all until that Overrun clutch starts to die and then it sucks some of the pressure/volume from the 3rd gear apply, resulting in slippage and failure plus a LOT more clutch generated heat too. The E4 uses the Overrun clutch as an accumulator of sorts to de-shock the 2-3 and 3-4 shift, making the shift to have less "bounce" and a little more perceived smoothness to the driver.

Smoothness in shifts, either from gently applying the clutchpacks or diverting the shock to the converter to let it absorb the shift-bang, (and remember here that the converter is the biggest heat generator in a design where the E4 is poorly engineered) is really a SALES spin and not good for the life of a transmission.

The E4s like to overheat and puke the fluid out the dipstick tube and when that happens it's too late. Some times the dipstick is so violently barfed out that it rockets out from under the hood and gets lost on the road. I think "RPG" was coined for these dipsticks 'way before Iraq!

This usually happens when you are pulling/towing up a grade at slightly higher than normal air temps.

The biggest problem with the E4 as I see it is the lack of clutch surfaces and the ability to get rid of heat...no matter how many large coolers you run.

I repaired (constantly) a fleet of E4s behind both gas and diesels and I was always installing a rebuilt core into at least three of them at a time. Thankfully, we didn't get any E4s behind the 3208 Cats or they'd never get outta the shop! These had Allisons!

It got so bad after a short time that I had to hire a guy to tear down and clean parts just to take that part of the load off of me so I could concentrate on rebuilding them. We

also tried a few Allisons in the F Super Dutys and 500s but they didn't like to talk to the ECMs and even though I was CalEPA/CalDOT licensed to make fleet emissions inspections, I knew that they were now illegal and would not pass if they went outside for testing later on.

I have never found a good combination of better parts from after market or third-party companies, but Trans-Co, RPM and CalTex had about the best kits and modified valve bodies of all.

RPM converters went into the toilet when they took their plant to Mexico to rebuild them. I like Ed Pink's converters better! Be careful..Ed Pink likes to rebuild some converters with a paint can, if you know what I mean!

DON'T EVEN THINK OF TCS CONVERTERS AT ALL!!!!!

Replacing the epoxy-powdered iron gears with real machined steel alloys helped, but nothing can compensate for the lack of protection to the clutches and seals that can't take such high heat levels for long. I've seen the piston seals actually melted into the valve body where they stuck like - er - melted plastic!

Thrust washers of Delrin and Nylon didn't seem to cause any untoward problems, they just melted down when the transmission did anyway.

Torque converters were another bad link in the chain as they are solely the biggest heat generators in any transmission and the E4's is too small to work without really heating the ATF over the top and that would kill the transmission faster than normal.

E4 bare cases are very very very very expensive...I ran the yards outta them in short order and had to go to Ford to get new ones...but they were very very very very very expensive. Did I say that enuff? $$$$$$$$$

All-in-all, the ZF is a better transmission..but it too has problems.

The countershaft front bearings are in constant failure mode and when they go they take out the front input shaft with themselves. These parts are $$$$$$$$$

There is no other source for these parts and the cases are another weak link as I've had trucks come in with big holes in the case under the countershaft where the whole shaft got "lost" on the freeway and was never found again!

The case is NOT the problem, it's the grenading of the input and the countershaft that makes the big holes.

I DO however, think that the case is flimsy enough to flex and start the input and countershaft on the road to failure when the case itself expands and changes the dimensions between the front countershaft and the input shaft bearings. The teeth can then get a different running (lash) pattern on the teeth and they "climb out" of the true apex where their strength is and get out to the thinner/weaker areas of the gears resulting in failure.

I believe this because I have found some of the case-heat treating from the tooth face in the sump of the transmission when I would change and service the manuals sometimes. I gave up servicing them..they blew up whenever they felt like it and new or old oil was not a problem.

Take into consideration that the "ZF" is an olde Czechoslovakian company, married to the FIAT and Renault corporations and that most European alloys are poor if not downright cheesy. It's MY belief that the ZF transmission is from the same foundries that made the antique Zundapp, Puch and Montessa motorcycles of days 'way gone past.

Ford is so-o-o-o broke ($-wise) that they wrote a lot of rubber checks to ZF and now ZF won't make more parts for Ford until they clean up the past due bills.

Ford will let you plunk down some serious deposits (usually 100%) to just get on the line to ORDER parts for these transmissions, but since there's a serious shortage of new units out there (nobody rebuilds them as the parts cost more than a whole, new trans), you are in direct competition with Ford for the parts...and they need theirs first to repair trucks still under warrantee. You come in dead last, if at all in getting parts.

So...you see...I think it's a crapshoot for a comparison for the E4 verses the ZF.

Ever consider an ALLISON? Old, established parts design and availability - after all, it's just a BIG THM400! Many 400 parts are the same as it is too!

Since you already have thought about an E4, I hope you know about the "re-establishing the 0:0 ration" for the ECM. It's terribly important that you know how to do this if you ever disconnect the battery or lose the charge in it overnight. The computer forgets how to shift the trans and will destroy itself in short time if it's asked to work hard before it figgers out what your real roadspeed is and when to shift!

The battery disconnect switches on ambulances caused a lot of early trans failure because an ambulance sits for a long time and might discharge the battery if it's allowed to wait..and a dead battery is no good in an emergency vehicle when they finally need to start it. They disconnected the battery for just that reason...but it dumped the adaptive strategies in the ECM for the transmission and they'd fry the trans in a few blocks.

The "Keep-Alive" memory has to be alive and charged at all times!

Ah! well..FORD is still a four-letter word!

Powdered epoxy gears?
I thought gears were made of steel.

And what's this of a computer reset on the E4OD?

This guy is supposedly a fleet diesel mechanic out in Cali.

[David85]

I think he means the gears have an epoxy hard surfacing on them, but in all the gears I have for E4ODs and even one overdrive planed from a 4R100, they all seem to be steel. I grenaded an overdrive section in my transmission because I put it together wrong and the pices of gear teath that broke off in that incident, they all seemed to be a hardened alloy steel and I saw no evidence of a hard surfacing on them. But I was not looking very hard for anything like that.

He is correct about the keep alive memory. If you disconnect the battery, the shift points and other info can be thrown off. The computer I have uses its own backup battery though, so I can disconnect it whenever I want without messing anything up. But I think the early E4OD controllers have a hard wired program that is not adjustable, so while fault codes may be lost, I don't think shift points will be thrown off on the pre powerstroke E4ODs that were used behind diesels.

As for torque converters. Well I really can't say which ones you can trust or not, it is possibe that many of them are made out of the country. I ended up drivng 4 hours to victoria, BC to get one that was made to order for me in their shop. So far no problems at all.