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6.0L Power Stroke Diesel 2003 - 2007 F250, F350 pickup and F350+ Cab Chassis, 2003 - 2005 Excursion and 2003 - 2009 van SPONSORED BY:

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  #16  
Old 06-22-2008, 12:56 PM
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great find bushpilot! hopefully some people will get some insite on why more than 14 quarts is too much!
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  #17  
Old 06-22-2008, 01:47 PM
origcharger origcharger is offline
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Originally Posted by mxer0022 View Post
great find bushpilot! hopefully some people will get some insite on why more than 14 quarts is too much!
How so? The 15 quart refill capacity already takes into account the oil that remains in the engine when its properly drained which in reality is closer to 3 quarts (as per International Truck and Engine Corp.).
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2004 E-450 6.0 187,500 miles
7,500 mile, 15 quart changes, 5W-40 Syn.
UOAs consist of checking for metal on drain plug magnet. Dyed ULSD fuel with no additives. Never been reflashed. Total parts replaced; one turbo,
two EGR valves, forgot to reconnect the wires on the second one at 151,360 miles.
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  #18  
Old 06-23-2008, 03:24 AM
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Originally Posted by origcharger View Post
How so? The 15 quart refill capacity already takes into account the oil that remains in the engine when its properly drained which in reality is closer to 3 quarts (as per International Truck and Engine Corp.).
no sir it does NOT...15 quarts is the DRY engine capacity.
the only way to drain the HPOP is to REMOVE it or suck the
reservoir dry. The HPOP reservoir does NOT drain when you drain
the pan !

please share w/ us where you think 3 quarts of oil stays when you
drain the pan ?? and if thats so you should share w/ the rest of us
documented proof where you have read that the 6.0L requires "18"
quarts DRY !
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  #19  
Old 06-23-2008, 09:08 AM
origcharger origcharger is offline
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Originally Posted by bushpilot View Post
no sir it does NOT...15 quarts is the DRY engine capacity.
the only way to drain the HPOP is to REMOVE it or suck the
reservoir dry. The HPOP reservoir does NOT drain when you drain
the pan !

please share w/ us where you think 3 quarts of oil stays when you
drain the pan ?? and if thats so you should share w/ the rest of us
documented proof where you have read that the 6.0L requires "18"
quarts DRY !

Oil remains in both pumps, turbo, oil cooler, HPOP reservoir, all the lubrication passageways, all the HEUI passageways, the hydraulic tappetts, the injectors and the oil filter housing, as the text you posted describes; removing the oil filter drains "MOST of the oil from the housing".
International does specify a "dry" engine fill for the VT365 of near 22 quarts and a refill capacity of 19, unless Ford has figured out a way to more completely drain the 6.0 engine it will be appox. 18 quarts for a dry engine fill.

Oops my bad, this is from International's VT365 service manual showing engine features and specifications, note dry engine fill is actually 4 quarts more than with an oil and filter change;

"International® VT 365 engine features and specifications

Engine
Diesel, 4 cycle

Configuration
4 OHV/1 Cam-in-Crankcase V8

Displacement
365 cu. in (6.0L)

Bore and stroke
95 mm x 105 mm (3.74 in x 4.134 in)

Compression ratio
18.0:1

Aspiration
VGT turbocharged and Charge Air Cooling (CAC)

Rated power @ rpm Base rating shown. See Appendix A for other ratings.
175 bhp @ 2600 rpm

Peak torque @ rpm
460 lbf•ft @ 1400 rpm

Engine rotation, facing flywheel
Counterclockwise

Combustion system
Digital Direct Injection (DDI)

Total engine weight (auto with oil)
459 kg (1094 lb)

Cooling system capacity (engine only)
10.2 liters (10.8 qts)

Lube system capacity (including filter)
18 liters (19 qts)

Lube system capacity (dry)
21.8 liters (23 qts)

Firing order
1-2-7-3-4-5-6-8"
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2004 E-450 6.0 187,500 miles
7,500 mile, 15 quart changes, 5W-40 Syn.
UOAs consist of checking for metal on drain plug magnet. Dyed ULSD fuel with no additives. Never been reflashed. Total parts replaced; one turbo,
two EGR valves, forgot to reconnect the wires on the second one at 151,360 miles.
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  #20  
Old 06-23-2008, 10:02 AM
bushpilot bushpilot is offline
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well that is good info...other than the obvious larger pan capacity
i dont know how much difference there is between the motors...
no doubt the injectors are different.

since the motors are so simular...i seriously doubt theres 3 quarts
(excluding the hpop) HIDDEN in the turbo and injections lines.

that "most of the oil" drained note is SPECIFIC to the FILTER & HOUSING
not the freekin' motor...
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  #21  
Old 06-23-2008, 10:35 AM
origcharger origcharger is offline
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Outside of the oil pan and programming there is not much differance between a VT365 and a 6.0.
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2004 E-450 6.0 187,500 miles
7,500 mile, 15 quart changes, 5W-40 Syn.
UOAs consist of checking for metal on drain plug magnet. Dyed ULSD fuel with no additives. Never been reflashed. Total parts replaced; one turbo,
two EGR valves, forgot to reconnect the wires on the second one at 151,360 miles.
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  #22  
Old 06-23-2008, 11:35 PM
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I put 16 liters in mine (half way on the hash marks) after changing head gaskets and high pressure oil pump,that has to be most all the oil.
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  #23  
Old 06-24-2008, 09:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by brickie View Post
I put 16 liters in mine (half way on the hash marks) after changing head gaskets and high pressure oil pump,that has to be most all the oil.
16 liters is about 17 quarts, add a quart to get to the top of the hash marks and you have 18. Considering there would be at least a pint in all the passages and components in the engine block it sounds like the dry engine lube capacity of 18-19 quarts isn't too far off the mark.

No wonder it is said lube oil degrades quickly in a 6.0 and you need to stay on top of the changes. Even if you refill with the specified 15 quarts, about 20% of the oil circulating in your engine was not changed. Even more sobering is that as much as 1/4 of that 20% wasn't fresh new oil at your prior change.
It would appear that refilling with only 13-14 quarts leaves you with about 25% to 30% used oil circulating through your engine. So if refilling with the specified 15 quarts does not cause you any operational problems why wouldn't you want to dilute that old oil as much as you can?
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2004 E-450 6.0 187,500 miles
7,500 mile, 15 quart changes, 5W-40 Syn.
UOAs consist of checking for metal on drain plug magnet. Dyed ULSD fuel with no additives. Never been reflashed. Total parts replaced; one turbo,
two EGR valves, forgot to reconnect the wires on the second one at 151,360 miles.
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  #24  
Old 06-24-2008, 12:01 PM
Powerstroke_wannabe Powerstroke_wannabe is offline
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I follow your logic Orig. But here's my problem, if I put 15 qts into my rig the oil level goes past the max mark on the dipstick up onto the metal wire of the stick, indicating it's overfilled. This is after waiting the 20 minutes after shut down to measure per the manual. Hearing of the problems caused by an overfilled 6.0, I shoot to get the oil level between the hash marks, which takes 13.5 qts for my rig. I agree that it would be nice to get a little more in the crank case to dilute the used oil that remains in the system. I'm just not comfortable letting the oil level go beyond the max fill line. I don't think you're advocating that either. Out of curiousity, when you fill yours with 15 qts where does that put the oil level on your dipstick? Also, how soon after engine shutdown do you measure your oil level?
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  #25  
Old 06-24-2008, 02:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Powerstroke_wannabe View Post
I follow your logic Orig. But here's my problem, if I put 15 qts into my rig the oil level goes past the max mark on the dipstick up onto the metal wire of the stick, indicating it's overfilled. This is after waiting the 20 minutes after shut down to measure per the manual. Hearing of the problems caused by an overfilled 6.0, I shoot to get the oil level between the hash marks, which takes 13.5 qts for my rig. I agree that it would be nice to get a little more in the crank case to dilute the used oil that remains in the system. I'm just not comfortable letting the oil level go beyond the max fill line. I don't think you're advocating that either. Out of curiousity, when you fill yours with 15 qts where does that put the oil level on your dipstick? Also, how soon after engine shutdown do you measure your oil level?
I look at the dipstick as an indicator of when and if I need to add oil to an engine. I don't look at it as an indicator that I should take it upon myself to adjust the manufacturers specified refill capacity.
Basically after a change I start it up, check for leaks then shut it down and see where the oil appears on the stick as a double check that I did not miscount the 3 gallons plus 3 quarts of bulk oil I put in. Generally we don't have time to operate the 6.0 or any other engine to operating temperature after an oil change and then wait 20 minutes to try and get an accurate dipstick reading. Also its an E450 cutaway van, long dipstick and tube that attaches to fan shroud, I would not consider it to be a more accurate measure of desired oil level than the 15 quarts specified by Ford as refill capacity that I just put in.
I do not advocate anyone over fill their engine oil.
I do advocate that when the oil filter is changed and the 6.0 is properly drained that 15 quarts will not over fill it.
We have been operating and maintaining our 2004 6.0 this way for over 100,000 miles and it has not had any issues or been to the dealer for anything other than the trannsmission recall.
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2004 E-450 6.0 187,500 miles
7,500 mile, 15 quart changes, 5W-40 Syn.
UOAs consist of checking for metal on drain plug magnet. Dyed ULSD fuel with no additives. Never been reflashed. Total parts replaced; one turbo,
two EGR valves, forgot to reconnect the wires on the second one at 151,360 miles.
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  #26  
Old 06-24-2008, 08:25 PM
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bismic bismic is offline
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The manual states to not add until BELOW the minimum. Clearly Ford does not see an issue with a 2 quart "underfill". They do caution against overfilling.

Oil analysis shows that adding ONLY 13.5 to 14 quarts to an 18 quart capacity (ie 4 quarts left in the system) is clearly working well for folks that do not have a pre-existing engine problem. Folks are easily going the 7500 miles with good UOA results. There is little benefit to diluting the old system by another quart. Even mathmatically, there is little benefit (at best 5.5%). This equates to an extra 400 miles driven when compared to a 7500 mile interval. Less when chaning at 5000 miles.

There is obviously a discrepancy between the 15 quart specification and the full mark on many (most?) trucks. Even so, keeping the oil level between the middle and full marks on the dipstick clearly fall within BOTH of the Ford recommendations.

Adding 15 quarts when it fills your system above the maximum point is, at a minimum, spending money without any REAL need. It is also putting you in an awkward position if you have problems that could be oil related (issues possibly caused by foaming) and you take it in and the dealership finds it overfilled (as indicated by dipstick).

I'm sure you could argue the 15 quart specification, then prove to them by draining and replacing the oil ..................... but who wants the aggrivation?

Seems like we should hit it in the middle, meet both Ford specs, and soften up on the rigid interpretations.

(IMHO)
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  #27  
Old 06-24-2008, 10:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bismic View Post
The manual states to not add until BELOW the minimum. Clearly Ford does not see an issue with a 2 quart "underfill". They do caution against overfilling.

Oil analysis shows that adding ONLY 13.5 to 14 quarts to an 18 quart capacity (ie 4 quarts left in the system) is clearly working well for folks that do not have a pre-existing engine problem. Folks are easily going the 7500 miles with good UOA results. There is little benefit to diluting the old system by another quart. Even mathmatically, there is little benefit (at best 5.5%). This equates to an extra 400 miles driven when compared to a 7500 mile interval. Less when chaning at 5000 miles.

There is obviously a discrepancy between the 15 quart specification and the full mark on many (most?) trucks. Even so, keeping the oil level between the middle and full marks on the dipstick clearly fall within BOTH of the Ford recommendations.

Adding 15 quarts when it fills your system above the maximum point is, at a minimum, spending money without any REAL need. It is also putting you in an awkward position if you have problems that could be oil related (issues possibly caused by foaming) and you take it in and the dealership finds it overfilled (as indicated by dipstick).

I'm sure you could argue the 15 quart specification, then prove to them by draining and replacing the oil ..................... but who wants the aggrivation?

Seems like we should hit it in the middle, meet both Ford specs, and soften up on the rigid interpretations.
bismic, I figured sooner or later you would chime in and really for the most part I agree. If we have a point of contention it lies with trusting the dipstick marks over the 15 quart refill spec. and me trusting the 15 quart refill spec. over what the dipstick may indicate.
For the most part this discussion is another example of real world versus the enthusiaist. I maintain a fleet of buses, I won't, unless there is a demonstrated reason, underfill the crankcase of a vehicle and send it on its way not knowing when I will get the opportunity to be under the hood again. I would wager the majority of these engines get serviced the same way as I do and also are not having oil level related issues. Guys like me also are not installing pyrometers, cool down timers and the like, we have far too many other vehicles to worry about.
We all know how easy it can be to change the oil on a 6.0, we should also all realize how easy it would be for someone to screw up and really overfill the crankcase by not removing the oil filter from a 6.0 in a pickup truck before reinstalling the oilpan drain plug, I bet its happened more than once.
If someone says they put in 13.5 or 14, I don't argue that its not enough, if its working for them and they feel good about it thats great. I usually keep my mouth shut until someone says 15 quarts is too much, well how would they really know? They never do it. We do it every change and its never been a problem.
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2004 E-450 6.0 187,500 miles
7,500 mile, 15 quart changes, 5W-40 Syn.
UOAs consist of checking for metal on drain plug magnet. Dyed ULSD fuel with no additives. Never been reflashed. Total parts replaced; one turbo,
two EGR valves, forgot to reconnect the wires on the second one at 151,360 miles.
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  #28  
Old 06-24-2008, 11:26 PM
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Yeah - I waited as long as I could ...................... I did make it longer than you did to chime in though !

I just figured the new readers should hear as much of both sides as possible. Your data is your own vehicle and its service record. It certainly is a successful data point at that, so it is very good info for us to have.

On the other hand, you can argue that there are many areas of inconcistent quality control and taking an approach that satisfies all constraints is quite practical. It even saves money! I would guess most folks check their oil level regularly - especially after the oil change - these vehicles are quite a bit too expensive to ignore.

Your caution about removing the oil filter before completing the drain is a valid one. IIRC - the manual even states to remove the oil filter before even opening the drain plug. I appreciate the way you stated it (rather than implying that those of us that put in only 14 quarts don't know how to change the oil).
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  #29  
Old 06-25-2008, 02:35 AM
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every man for his own poison i guess. huh?
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  #30  
Old 06-25-2008, 07:03 AM
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I use 14 qts never had a problem.
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Old 06-25-2008, 07:03 AM
 
 
 
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