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Old 05-21-2008, 09:50 AM
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Run your Diesel on Water?

As I pumped $4.50/gal diesel into my 2006 F250 last night and my credit card was declined I have just about had it.

On this last tank I pumped my Nitto Grapplers up to 70psi (80 is max). Usually ran about 45-50psi. Rides rougher but oh well. Seemed to help about 0.5mpg give or take.

This tank I'm really trying the Hypermiling driving techniques. According to my lie-O-meter when racing around town like normal I get about 15.5mpg. So far on this tank which I'm only 2 days into trying this. The lie-O-meter is sitting on an average of 21.3!!! Cant really say the extra time is not worth saving 6mpg at $4.50 and rising...

This morning I was surfing around a Google search on Hypermiling and came across this "Run Your Car on Water" site which according to the reviewers is the best of this guide. Here is the link.

Run Your Car on Water

It says it can be used on gas or diesel engines and will save 40%. Now I came from the school of "If it looks too good to be true it probably is" so I am skeptical to say the least. However, they have the 90 page manual on sale for $49 and it costs about $60 for the parts to make the conversion.

I just paid $145 for ONE tank of fuel. If this saved half or 20% that is almost $30/tank.

Anyone tried this or is it just smoke and mirrors and they are getting their $49 for no increase in MPG, kind of like the tuner I just paid $500+ for...made my truck real fast but even when driving normal I saw no mpg increase.

Lets hear from anyone who has tried or thinks I should go first into the pool!
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Old 05-21-2008, 09:54 AM
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Quick update - Just from my quick research I think they are using electricity to convert H20 to HHO which is what blew up the Hindenberg. I have seen HHO blow the top off a battery 50 feet high but if done right there is a good chance that injecting HHO into the combustion chamber there is significant energy to be added...
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Old 05-21-2008, 10:44 AM
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There is a course in engineering called thermodynamics, in which you learn that there is no free lunch.

To generate the electricity used to separate the water into hydrogen and oxygen (a process called electrolysis), the alternator will demand more power from the engine. If everything were perfect, you would burn the hydrogen and oxygen, and you would recover EXACTLY the amount of extra energy required by the alternator to separate the water.

The sad truth, however, is that no process is 100% efficient.... in addition to separating the water into hydrogen and oxygen, the process will also slightly heat the water. That's lost energy. The additional power put out by the engine to drive the alternator will not all be converted to electricity.... some of that energy will heat the alternator windings because of internal resistance, and some will be lost in the diode bridge. More lost energy.

This has been around for a long time, but is receiving renewed interest as fuel costs go through the roof. It's a scam, pure and simple.
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Old 05-21-2008, 10:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wwb View Post
There is a course in engineering called thermodynamics, in which you learn that there is no free lunch.

To generate the electricity used to separate the water into hydrogen and oxygen (a process called electrolysis), the alternator will demand more power from the engine. If everything were perfect, you would burn the hydrogen and oxygen, and you would recover EXACTLY the amount of extra energy required by the alternator to separate the water.

The sad truth, however, is that no process is 100% efficient.... in addition to separating the water into hydrogen and oxygen, the process will also slightly heat the water. That's lost energy. The additional power put out by the engine to drive the alternator will not all be converted to electricity.... some of that energy will heat the alternator windings because of internal resistance, and some will be lost in the diode bridge. More lost energy.

This has been around for a long time, but is receiving renewed interest as fuel costs go through the roof. It's a scam, pure and simple.

Ah,,, the perpetual motion machine that hasn't successfully been developed yet.
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Old 05-21-2008, 11:05 AM
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um, with only high school chemistry and physics, i would say that HHO is the same thing as H2O. 2 hydrogens and 1 water.
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Old 05-21-2008, 11:15 AM
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A factory built unit http://hydro4000.com/
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Old 05-21-2008, 12:32 PM
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Originally Posted by spence13e View Post
um, with only high school chemistry and physics, i would say that HHO is the same thing as H2O. 2 hydrogens and 1 water.
just fyi the O stands for oxygen not water....H2O is water
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Old 05-21-2008, 12:40 PM
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LOL! ok, i'm an idiot. that's what i meant...
sorry, brain fart.
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Old 05-21-2008, 02:30 PM
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WWB, I agree there is no free lunch. I think looking at the link and video on the Hydro4000 that rbaker added it appears that the Hydrogen and Oxygen are just working to improve the efficiency of a very inefficient engine.

The only thing I question is the 9.8mpg on the dyno for the Dodge SUV at 55mph. That seems quite low. My 6.0 gets about 23mpg on the hiway at 55mph and no ac, etc.

Anyway, for $49 plus $60 in parts I just might give this a shot. I have kept a spreadsheet for over 55k miles so I know pretty well what my truck does now and if there is even a 5% increase I will be able to see it after a few tanks to average out the variables. If I get 20% I will be happy. If I get 40% or more that they claim I'll buy the beer!!!
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Old 05-21-2008, 03:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wwb View Post
There is a course in engineering called thermodynamics, in which you learn that there is no free lunch.

To generate the electricity used to separate the water into hydrogen and oxygen (a process called electrolysis), the alternator will demand more power from the engine. If everything were perfect, you would burn the hydrogen and oxygen, and you would recover EXACTLY the amount of extra energy required by the alternator to separate the water.

The sad truth, however, is that no process is 100% efficient.... in addition to separating the water into hydrogen and oxygen, the process will also slightly heat the water. That's lost energy. The additional power put out by the engine to drive the alternator will not all be converted to electricity.... some of that energy will heat the alternator windings because of internal resistance, and some will be lost in the diode bridge. More lost energy.
What if the electrolysis was performed by using solar cells? Maybe attached to a fiberglass bedlid?
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Old 05-21-2008, 03:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Demolition View Post
What if the electrolysis was performed by using solar cells? Maybe attached to a fiberglass bedlid?
This is an idea that has some possiblity of working. You don't neeed to violate any laws of thermodyamics, because you are actually adding energy to the system from a "free" source. You'll probably need some batteries and other electrical equipment, and the solar panels aren't cheap, but it could work.

About the system described i the first couple posts, I'll just say what I always say. If all the energy is comming from the Gasoline, you'll use use as much.
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Old 05-21-2008, 03:56 PM
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All the energy is still coming from gasoline but the H and O are causing the combustion to be more complete which increases the efficiency.

Basically I think H and O are much better for combustion than Nitrogen which is what 80% of our air is made up of. I'm still not sure about the amount of energy required to power the hydrogen cell being as much as the improvement in efficiency.
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Old 05-22-2008, 08:31 AM
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Originally Posted by yamahonda41 View Post
All the energy is still coming from gasoline but the H and O are causing the combustion to be more complete which increases the efficiency.

Basically I think H and O are much better for combustion than Nitrogen which is what 80% of our air is made up of. I'm still not sure about the amount of energy required to power the hydrogen cell being as much as the improvement in efficiency.
Not even close.

Gasoline and diesel fuel are both classed as "hydrocarbons". They are a mixture of different compounds, all of which are composed almost exclusively of hydrogen and carbon atoms. When combined with the oxygen in the air (about 15%) and ignited, they break apart, forming CO2 (can't do a subscript on the "2"), or carbon dioxide, and H2O, or water, releasing heat in the process. The heat causes an increase in pressure of the combustion products, driving the piston down.

Nitrogen plays no part in the combustion process whatsoever, unless your mixture is too lean. If this is the case, the combustion temperature will be high enough to cause some of the nitrogen to also combine with oxygen, forming NOX compounds (a nitrogen atom combined with 1, 2, or even 3 oxygen atoms). The purpose of EGR is to reduce the combustion temperature, preventing the formation of NOX, as it is considered a pollutant.

If your mixture is too rich, the fuel will not all ignite, resulting in "unburned hydrocarbons". The job of the catalytic converter is to finish combining the unburned fuel with oxygen.

Adding that tiny little bit of hydrogen and oxygen to your intake air in the form of gases would make such a tiny difference as to be absolutely unnoticable.

The amount of hydrogen and carbon contained in fuel is determined by weight..... about 6 lb per gallon. The oxygen is free.... you get it from the air coming through the intake system. A gallon of water weighs about 8 lb, but it's about 89% oxygen by weight.... you don't need oxygen, 'cause you already have enough, and adding more won't help. You get the energy from burning the hydrogen.... about 11% of the water.

In other words, the amount of energy you would get from a gallon of water is nowhere near the energy in a gallon of gasoline or diesel fuel.... and you have to put energy into this thing (from the engine) in order to separate the water.

I have a Bachelor of Science in Mechanical Engineering, a Master of Science in Engineering Mechanics, have been a member of SAE (Society of Automotive Engineers) since 1979, and have spent most of my engineering career in mobile equipment. That's not to toot my own horn, but to convince you that I know what I'm talking about.... if you want to spend the money it's your choice, but like I said earlier, it's a scam.
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Old 05-22-2008, 06:53 PM
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Here is a good thread from the 7.3 fourm. http://www.ford-trucks.com/forums/68...002-7-3-a.html I had forgot about it and have not read past the 2nd or 3rd page, so I do not know how it's going lately.
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Old 05-25-2008, 12:21 AM
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There is so much technology out there now. Its funny how these so called laws of physics keep some peoples heads stuck in the box.
Just like with magnetics, what is a magnet? Its a clean form of atomic energy, and in the simple electromagnet form it is basicly a magnetic laser so to say. Just look at how a
simple laser is made with a ruby rod surounded by the pumped light source.
If you choose the correct magnetic material and pump it with an electromagnetic field, then you have a magnetic amplifier, or magnetic laser of sorts. Use that in addition to field feed back and you have a supercharged motor. These systems are not giving you something for free its all from a form of atomic energy with in the materials.
And with the hydrogen deal, its not a thing of making a bunch of it to run the engine on, its making just enough to help the combustion process, and use the existing fuel more efficiently, kinda like how everyone with the Propane systems do it only it should be much better with hydrogen. So why can't some think outside that box?????
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Old 05-25-2008, 12:21 AM
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