Water4Gas

[LastSplash]

Ok so they break the H2O molecules up into Hydroen gas and oxygen, then the hydrogen passes through a membrane as it recombines with the oxygen to once again form water, the membrane will not allow the electrons around the hydrogen to pass through so the electrons flow along the membrane surface to get back to the hydrogen, the movement of electrons=voltage, that voltage then charges a battery to supply power. The whole system is nice and in a perfect world it would be self sustaining, in theory. The problem is we live in the real world and in the real world all processes have losses and as a result the system uses at least 2.5 times the energy that it produces. That is why they used a battery to supply power eventually the system will stop when the battery is fully discharged.

[aurgathor]

PSNut may have gotten it right. I was actually thinking of this one: Urine-powered battery developed (Update), but on a larger scale.

However, regardless of what they use, it's not really powered by water -- it's powered by whatever metal (or metal hydride) that will react with water and generates either electricity directly, or hydrogen.

[lmadore]

I guess I'm one of them there gullible people. I bought it, and I still can't figure out how my fuel bill has dropped by over $150 bucks in a month and my truck is running smoother, cooler, and my emissions have been reduced significantly. Also monitor the Air-fuel ratio and it is not running dangerously lean.

The way I look at it, the alternator is going to generate the 8 amps I am using to make the Brown's gas whether I've got the system running or not. The engine load does not vary depending on the load. The alternator is 100 amp and does not take more or less horsepower with the additional electrical load. Truck System Voltage never drops below 14V unless I'm idling in traffic with the air on and that is due to the 25-30 amp load of the fan and compressor. So, the energy is otherwise wasted if it is not used to create the gas....

It's not free energy from nothing. It is potential energy released by a electro/chemical reaction. The energy is only made more accessible/usable.

My truck is not the only truck I've seen this work on. I followed suite after I saw the numbers from a friends truck. His was is a 3/4T GMC with a 6.0. Both of us use a design similar to that found at water4gas. I'm running a 4 cell unit and he is running a 6 cell setup. Both of us built from scratch and made improvements. Mine draws a total of 8 amps consistantly. The cells are run in series electrically and are plumbed in series as well. 14V/4 cells works out to be between 3 to 4 volts per cell at approximately 2 amps each. It is not a pressurized storage system, but a hydrogen on demand system that runs off of generated pressure from the electrolysis and the vaccum of the engine. My unit sits in the toolbox back of the cab. My friend mounted his under the hood after some mods that created some space.

I'd also note that my driving habits have not changed after the mod. That 86 5.0 is running at or about 3000 RPM right around 75MPH. Torque is also better.

I've only got $250 in the system and it has already paid for itself...

P.S. My friend and I are both very conservative politically. Neither of us believes the Global Warming crap. The mods were only done out of necessity.

P.P.S. I'll wave as I pass you at the pump!

[LastSplash]

I you are actually getting the result that you posted then kudos to you for a job well done. That being said, you should study up a bit on the principles of operation for generators(alternators). The 100a alternator on your truck is not always putting out 100amps. The alternator varies output to supply current electrical load, if your electrical load is 65 amps that is all the alternator puts out up to a maximum of 100 amps, the alternator output is changed by increasing or decreasing the field voltage, as the field voltage increases the alternator output increases and contrary to what you stated the alternator is a major load on the engine. An easy way to see how much of a load the alternator can be is to turn off all of your electrical loads while the engine is idling then turn on the heater blower at maximum speed and at the same time pull back on the headlight switch to activate the "flash to pass" feature (energizes both high and low beams) and watch your engine rpm it will drop about 150 rpm due to the increased load, if the PCM does not inject more fuel the engine rpm would stay low.
In conclusion the 8 amps your system draws is a load on the engine.
Also is your alternator was always putting out 100amps you would get some first hand experience with an even more powerful hydrogen generator called a lead acid battery. If the alternator was always at max load the battery would get overcharged and start to boil and as a lead acid battery is charged it produces hydrogen gas, overcharge it long enough and it will explode.

[aurgathor]

For me, this is in the "even if it's true I don't believe it" category.
For me to even consider this, one of these have to be true:
a) results would need to be certified by a believable agency
b) I would need to do the driving and measure the mpg myself
c) someone would need to explain and prove how and why this is possible

In any case, what was your gas bill before, and after, and which system do you have, since there are some ways (i.e. water injection, tuning the mixture to lean peak) that may work and could lead to some mpg increase.

[aurgathor]

Forget to mention, how exactly do you measure your emissions and air to fuel ratio? People usually don't have equipment to measure those.

And this is BS:

So, the energy is otherwise wasted if it is not used to create the gas....

The voltage regulator modulates the field current to produce a near constant output voltage, regardless of the current drain. (within limits, of course)

[lmadore]

First, there is a significant difference between the electrical load and the physical load placed on the engine. The RPMs dropping during a heavy electrical load is likely due to a voltage drop which has some negative effects on the ECU, sensors, fuel delivery and spark conditions. An alternator's phyical drag on the engine is not proportional to the electrical load placed on it... I'm not a dumb***, I know all about alternator power curves and the changes in available output based on the RPM. I definitely don't need a lecture. Fact of the matter is, this particular alternator has a decent rating as low as 750 engine RPMs

The emissions were checked before and after at a state certified emissions station. The second reading was significantly lower and well below the maximums set by the State. Thing is, the air pump didn't have a belt on it and the catalytic converter was cleaned out long before I bought the truck.

Fuel-air ratio can be determined - do some research. It's pretty easy to measure. A lean engine is also going to typically run hotter and the plugs will show significant damage as well due to the increased heat. A rich mixture is going to show signs of carbon fouling on the plugs and HC emissions will go through the roof.

I suggest all of you take a look in your High School Chemistry books and read them this time. Pay particular attention to the information concerning Stoichiometry. A mole of HHO / Brown's gas has more potential energy in it than and equivalent volume of that crap they are calling gas at your pump. The mandated ethanol (E10) alone contributes heavily to that propblem.

Since you all seem to think you are you know the answers, may be you need to come talk to the engineers in the office I work in.

Like I said before, I'll wave as I pass you at the pump driving my 1/2T 4x4!

[lmadore]

I suspect that part of the reason the auto manufacturer's haven't touched this is the cost to the company. R&D, prototypes, redesigning engines to optimize, reprogramming ECU Completely, redesigning the vehicle to integrate the system. For what, to make a car/engine that lasts a lot longer and gets better mileage. They don't want to make cars that last longer. It would mean a significant drop in propduction and profits. It would also mean a significant drop in oil consumption causing the oil futures market to tank, causing all those execs to loose invested money. There is not enough incentive for them to do it. Greed and shortsighted tunnel vision is what it boils down to. They want to make money and lots of it quickly, with as little investment as possible at the outset. In the mean time, they are some of the players that are contributing to the destruction of the economy.

[FTE Ken]

Originally Posted by lmadore

I guess I'm one of them there gullible people. I bought it, and I still can't figure out how my fuel bill has dropped by over $150 bucks in a month and my truck is running smoother, cooler, and my emissions have been reduced significantly. Also monitor the Air-fuel ratio and it is not running dangerously lean.

What are you using to monitor air/fuel ratio? Can you post pictures of the data logging setup you're running?

[FTE Ken]

Originally Posted by lmadore

First, there is a significant difference between the electrical load and the physical load placed on the engine. The RPMs dropping during a heavy electrical load is likely due to a voltage drop which has some negative effects on the ECU, sensors, fuel delivery and spark conditions. An alternator's phyical drag on the engine is not proportional to the electrical load placed on it... I'm not a dumb***,

No one said you were dumb, but its fact that alternator load increases in portportion to the electrical load drawn on it. Otherwise we could simply draw 300 watts from a 1 liter engine and run the vehicle from the electrical output. If you look at the PCM tables there are adders used to maintain RPM as load goes up -- in other words the engine consumes more fuel to maintain RPM.

I know all about alternator power curves and the changes in available output based on the RPM. I definitely don't need a lecture. Fact of the matter is, this particular alternator has a decent rating as low as 750 engine RPMs

The emissions were checked before and after at a state certified emissions station. The second reading was significantly lower and well below the maximums set by the State.

What were these numbers? Can you post scans of the documents?

[quote]Since you all seem to think you are you know the answers, may be you need to come talk to the engineers in the office I work in.

Likewise, since you propose to know the answers and have stated results, I'm asking for you to prove. Post the emissions charts. Post A/F charts while running.

[FTE Ken]

Originally Posted by lmadore

I suspect that part of the reason the auto manufacturer's haven't touched this is the cost to the company. R&D, prototypes, redesigning engines to optimize, reprogramming ECU Completely, redesigning the vehicle to integrate the system.

They spend billions already. R&D in order to achieve better economy cheaply is something they've been doing.

For what, to make a car/engine that lasts a lot longer and gets better mileage. They don't want to make cars that last longer.

I suggest you take a look at the longevity trend data over the last 40 years. Manufacturers have, on average, built longer lasting vehicles with each new model. I've posted it on this site before and its a statistical fact that vehicles last longer now than they used to. Warrantees have gone from about 3,000 miles in the 1960s to 36,000, 50,000, 75,000, 100,000 and unlimited (Dodge) in the current year depending on the model.

[monckywrench]

"Since you all seem to think you are you know the answers, may be you need to come talk to the engineers in the office I work in."

Since these things work, you can become wealthy selling or re-selling them. Proving they work with independant dyno testing would boost sales for a franchise holder.

Got enough faith to pass the hat among the engineers to fund such a dyno test? The plural of anecdote isn't "data", as they will tell you. With that much skill available it would be easy to set up such an unimpeachable proof scenario that all doubters would commit suicide in shame (or buy a system and make you rich!).

[aurgathor]

Originally Posted by lmadore

First, there is a significant difference between the electrical load and the physical load placed on the engine.

And how exactly do you place an electrical load on an engine?

An alternator's phyical drag on the engine is not proportional to the electrical load placed on it...

Nope. It is.

I'm not a dumb***, I know all about alternator power curves and the changes in available output based on the RPM. I definitely don't need a lecture.

Sorry, 'doubt' for all.

The emissions were checked before and after at a state certified emissions station. The second reading was significantly lower and well below the maximums set by the State

Then post the results.

Fuel-air ratio can be determined - do some research. It's pretty easy to measure.

Answer the question: how do you monitor the air-fuel ratio?

I suggest all of you take a look in your High School Chemistry books and read them this time. Pay particular attention to the information concerning Stoichiometry. A mole of HHO / Brown's gas has more potential energy in it than and equivalent volume of that crap they are calling gas at your pump.

You may want to follow your own advice and look for the "HHO gas" in the chemistry book.... but it won't be there because it does not, and can not exist! 'HHO gas' is a giveaway of scams, BTW.

Since you all seem to think you are you know the answers, may be you need to come talk to the engineers in the office I work in.

So you're making these systems, perchance? Otherwise, I'd tend to think engineers would know it better.

[japar]

To be honest I had problems in Chemistry and Physics but I was a brain in Math. If you recall there was another scam in the late 80's there was a device you could install on your engine that would give you more power and better fuel economy. Well I paid the money installed this device on my 6.9 diesel and did the math over and over and it worked for me. This thingamagig was called a turbocharger. Today you cannot buy a diesel truck without one . My turbocharged truck can tow my unloaded car trailer with no loss in mpg. Like it doesn't know its there. I wonder if this turbocharged powerhouse can spare a few amps to operate a little hydrogen generator without knowing.

[aurgathor]

Apples and oranges.

I think turbochargers have been around for quite a while, they don't violate the laws of physics, and it is well explained how they work. And they get their power from the exhaust, not the engine directly.