More fuel cost stupidity

[David85]

You are right, Dodge/Cummins. Unfortunately there isn't really an example of a small time oil producer, at least not in the fossil fuel business, I have a feeling the rules are set up to make that impossible. Don't mean to bring alternative energy up again, but its kind of interesting to note that small time biodiesel producers are selling road legal, taxed fuel for less than the cost of petrodiesel in some cases.

The main reason is that the cost of biodiesel is a direct reflection of the cost to make, and distribute the stuff plus a small profit margin. That rule does not apply to crude oil because the price is set on on the stock market.

The price of biodiesel cannot be sustained on farmland alone, but if they ever figure out algea, that would be the solution.


I seem to remember that the main concern over supply relates to fuel refining capacity. hurricane katrina also knocked out already overburdend facilities, and it contributed to the price of crude. I know canada is drilling and digging for oil like its going out of style, but I'm not up to date on what the local refining situation is. Although as it stands right now, the price of oil is the only thing standing between canada, an the recession in the states (so far so good).

[David85]

Originally Posted by RCrawler

Speaking of the greenies...
Happy Earth Day!!! I did my part and took the family out and cut down a nice tree to decorate

Jason

Ahh yes, they were chatting about that on another forum I hang around. If you guys can keep a secret, we have been known to recycle in my town, I hope that doesn't make me a tree hugger. Earth day makes about as much sence as turning the lights off for one hour, or not buying gas for a day. Better off taking a placebo.

As for a market collapse, I doubt it. Even the chinese would pour money into the US market before anyone in the develpoed world would let that happen. The brits are poised to do just that in short order. Its a global economy, nobody would benafit from a market collapse in the states.

[Dodge/Cummins]

Isn't one of the reasons biodiesel is viable because there are government subsities for it. I know in Oregon there is because there is a huge debate over it among people that usually agree on matters. Farmers vs. conservatives.
I'm not that up on the matter, definitely not enough to offer an opinion, but if the gov't (us) is esentially footing part of the cost that throws off the balance.
It seems kinda dumb to make fuel out of your food. If we could/can grow enough for food and fuel and the cost is REALLY cheaper that would be GREAT!
But the "algea" type solutions would be way better all the way around.

[Dodge/Cummins]

I don't have a problem with any recycling or just about anything else to"save the Earth" I just think the radicals take things to extremes. Especially on air pollution, "carbon credits", cutting down trees, drilling and refining oil and nuclear power. I remember when the Valdez oil spill happened it was the end of the coastal habitat for decades! The earth "healed" itself in like what 2-3 years? I agree we don't need to just "rape the earth" but there is a happy nedium.
There is like 5-6 BILLION people on this planet that need to survive, if not thrive, that's going to take some resources to do.

[catfish101]

Hopefully not a repeat of the 1930's...

I hate to say it but I think it will be worse. What is bad I am an optimist.

I think it could be allot worse because there are more people in the population that have no idea how to survive. Food prices are getting bad. They won't be back down. The fuel is driving the whole thing. The oil companies have this country in a bind. The bad part is that we let it happen. We have been living good for along time and those times are about to change and they have for some.

[RCrawler]

Originally Posted by Dodge/Cummins

Isn't one of the reasons biodiesel is viable because there are government subsities for it. I know in Oregon there is because there is a huge debate over it among people that usually agree on matters. Farmers vs. conservatives.
I'm not that up on the matter, definitely not enough to offer an opinion, but if the gov't (us) is esentially footing part of the cost that throws off the balance.
It seems kinda dumb to make fuel out of your food. If we could/can grow enough for food and fuel and the cost is REALLY cheaper that would be GREAT!
But the "algea" type solutions would be way better all the way around.

Oregon has mandated an ethanol mix to our gasoline. First of all, it has caused a major fuel mileage drop. I went from getting 35-36 mpg consistently to 27-29. A 20% or more decrease.
And, it takes approx 1 acre planted to make enough ethanol to make a gallon of ethanol blend fuel. How much diesel fuel is used to farm that acre? It doesn't make any sense.

The one thing that I have never understood is why the US (maybe Canada too) is held to a higher standard when it comes to air pollution and fuel economy. There are many European cars getting 40-60+ mpg that the US won't allow to be imported because they don't meet our emissions requirements. To get that kind of mileage, they must be very efficient. Why would they not be clean burning as well? And just today, Bush signs a bill that will mandate 31.5 mpg by 2015? Yet big business gets a license to be churning out the pollution because of their carbon credits.

Jason

[Dodge/Cummins]

Most of the "carbon credits" are for trees that already exist. They aren't going out and planting new trees, landowners are being paid not to cut their trees down, how stupid. Most of these people weren't going to cut their trees down anyway so they might as well take payment for them. Good gig if you can get it!
I also seems rather stupid to make cars rediculously "clean" but burn twice as much fuel, as RCrawler has said. I suspect that's mostly so that the Gov't can get more road tax.

[David85]

Carbon trading has got to be one of the worst schemes I have ever heard of. The government in canada does not really support the idea (unofficially), but are being forced into acting like they do because it is a popular idea among activist scientists. Treaties like the kyto protocol allow wealthy countries like the US and canada to "pay to pollute" and instead of that money being reinvested in our own borders, it gets sent to developing countries that burn less fuel per capita simply because they can't afford to buy the fuel. I have a feeling that the UN would skim some off the top when the money changes hands. It smells like a scam to me.

I find it interesting that every change that is made to make for better emission controls results in lower MPG and more fuel taxes we pay per mile. VERY interesting point you raise, RCrawler.

As far as I'm concerned, the price of fuel is all the motivation that is needed to develope alternatives. Alternatives like solar cells that are nearly as cheap as roofing: Nanosolar - Home Page

Now all we need are low cost batteries that can store enough energy to compare to gasoline or diesel. Right now, the chinese will probably beat us to that one.

[RCrawler]

Originally Posted by David85

As far as I'm concerned, the price of fuel is all the motivation that is needed to develope alternatives. Alternatives like solar cells that are nearly as cheap as roofing: Nanosolar - Home Page

Now all we need are low cost batteries that can store enough energy to compare to gasoline or diesel. Right now, the chinese will probably beat us to that one.

From what I have read and heard about, solar energy is very inefficient compared to the cost and size of the cell panels needed. Maybe if the technology catches up to the vision we had 25 years ago...

In Oregon, there is a constant battle going on for alternative energy. It seems that every viable solution brought to the table or implemented is shot down for one reason or another. Can't have nuclear, too dangerous. No windmills in a remote part of the desert due to noise pollution. Can't have an LNG terminal to bring cheap natural gas to the NW. They are in negotiations to remove 3 dams in southern Oregon, because of hazards to salmon runs (water rights between the tribes and farming is a huge issue here). This at a cost to the regional power company, and the loss to over 200K homes in the area. And you know who will foot the bill in the end for it.


Jason

[OldMetal]

The same thing happened back in the 70's with the fuel shortage, storage tanks were full and ships were waiting of the coast to dump their loads.
We have lots of oil wells already drilled here, I know of many on the front range in Co. And they have never been used, simply drilled and capped.

[David85]

Originally Posted by RCrawler

From what I have read and heard about, solar energy is very inefficient compared to the cost and size of the cell panels needed. Maybe if the technology catches up to the vision we had 25 years ago...

In Oregon, there is a constant battle going on for alternative energy. It seems that every viable solution brought to the table or implemented is shot down for one reason or another. Can't have nuclear, too dangerous. No windmills in a remote part of the desert due to noise pollution. Can't have an LNG terminal to bring cheap natural gas to the NW. They are in negotiations to remove 3 dams in southern Oregon, because of hazards to salmon runs (water rights between the tribes and farming is a huge issue here). This at a cost to the regional power company, and the loss to over 200K homes in the area. And you know who will foot the bill in the end for it.


Jason

Yep, the sea lice debate rages on in campbell rivrer too (anywhere there is fish farming actually). We don't eat farmed fish (not that we consume a lot of fish anyway), and I don't know anyone that does. Heard that most of the product goes to asia, but don't know if its true.

For solar energy, if your roof is made of PV cells you don't have to by electricity anymore. I don't have the numbers on hand, but most single family homes have enough surface area on the roof to not only power the home, but also at least one car as well with enough left over to sell back into the grid. It is concievable to power a fullsize truck depending on how far you have to go per charge. PV cells are also one of those things that no one really knows how long they last. The technology is roughly 35 years old (nanosolar is recent) and many of the original silicon based cells are still working today. I would leave all the lights on all night just becasue I could.

campbell river residence succesfully thwarted a planned offshore wind farm project a few years ago. The main reason was that it would ruin everyones ocean view and possibly damage the sport fishery. Noise pollution is not a problem with wind turbines anymore and attempts to explain the project actual impact on the environment fell on deaf ears. Alas, most folks made up their mind when they saw the artist rendition on front page news....what a waste.

Classic case of NIMBY.

[cornking]

I think I am going to build a STILL (the southern boys know how) and make moonshine. You can run cars, generators, and all kinds of other equipment with alcohol, and you can be very happy doing it.

[Fords'R'Us]

Well I noticed that when we got into the war prices went up. I don't see why we dont just nuke the saudis!?!? oh wait, thats another war...I think a boycott would be cool, but everyone has to work, Maybe if obama get president they might lower it lol....I heard the in the fall of 08 and the begining of 09 prices will fall...but thats what they always say. Like katrina prices were dropping and then it hit and they went right back up!!! personally, i hate hippies, tree huggin, pot smokin panzies! We shoulda drilled alaska a looong time ago!!!

and just a thought, maybe they are holdin oil and such for a reason besides money?

[catfish101]

We have enough wells drilled now to supply oil. There is an excess of fuel at the refineries but the price still goes up. It is the oil investors and the companies that are playing with the futures. The governments are involved because it isn't doing anything about it. Don't know what can be done but something needs to be done.

Alternative fuels like bio fuel isn't the answer either. I am as pro farmer as anybody on this forum but all that bio fuel has done is cause food and feed prices to go up.

Wind and solar energy is something that needs to be affordable so that a single household can us it to produce their own energy. But there again you have the power companies that will see that it isn't as available as it should be. It is like geothermal, it isn't cost effective for most people.

At least I raise most of what we eat so we can stay out of the grocery stores as much as possible.

[David85]

The link I posted earlier for NanoSolar is the most cost effective solar panel ever made to date. They are selling them for less than $1 per watt (building them for $0.30/watt), but demand is so high that there is a MINIMUM 10 month waiting list. The are building up their multiple factories as fast as they can at the moment. It is also worth mentioning that ALL major solar panel companies are pretty much going flat out trying to meet demand (includin ovonics corp in the USA, which is owned by chevron). Solar power is here and making a difference already, but it doesn't get the attention of nuclear or other high density power production.

If your utility company has a sell back provision for electricity, than it could cost as little as $10 000 to get enough solar cells on your roof to have a net zero electricity bill. If they won't let you sell back to the grid, than a battery bank will be needed, and the cost starts to rise. But theres nothing new in this idea, many cottages out in the inner waterways off vancouver island (my stomping ground) have been using solar power for years now, simply because there is no other choice.


Catfish, I couldn't agree more about biofuel and the negative impact on the price of food around the world. Its a neat idea, but using farmland is the wrong solution. I did some minor research on biodiesel a few years ago, and the writing was on the wall even back then. Its a little surreal to look back now and see it has all come to pass. The good news is that algea is being actively developed and migh still have a role to play in the near future. The crop yield is so high that is even possible to grow it out of your back yard.