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  #1  
Old 03-29-2008, 12:32 PM
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Of Flywheel effect and Inertial storage transmission

http://www.rexresearch.com/carman/carman.htm
What happened to this? and more importantly the flywheel energy
storage car. I know the DOT linits the weight of flywheels that can
be in vehicles operated on our highways but maybe with modern cad
designing and materials new flywheels can be made that don't have
the dangerous liabilities. If a 200 pound flywheel was used to store
the energy of let's say a 2 cylinder 350cc motor it would have the
apparent torque of a much larger motor while burning a lot less fuel.
Of course a torque convertor would have to be developed that could
handle a constant spin since the motor would always be at a set rpm
and keeping the flywheel moving, Of course that generates alot of
heat. Why does the dot want to keep heavy flywheels out of our
hands?
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  #2  
Old 03-29-2008, 01:50 PM
aurgathor aurgathor is offline
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You might want to read these first.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flywheel
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flywheel_energy_storage

And here are a few selected quotes:
Quote:
In application of flywheels in vehicles, the phenomenon of precession has to be considered. A rotating flywheel responds to any momentum that tends to change the direction of its axis of rotation by a resulting precession rotation. A vehicle with a vertical-axis flywheel would experience a lateral momentum when passing the top of a hill or the bottom of a valley (roll momentum in response to a pitch change).

When used in vehicles, flywheels also act as gyroscopes, since their angular momentum is typically of a similar order of magnitude as the forces acting on the moving vehicle. This property may be detrimental to the vehicle's handling characteristics while turning.

In the 1950s flywheel-powered buses, known as gyrobuses, were used in Yverdon, Switzerland, and there is ongoing research to make flywheel systems that are smaller, lighter, cheaper, and have a greater capacity.
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Old 04-01-2008, 01:41 PM
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You don't have to have just one flywheel and two or three counter rotating flywheels
would help get rid of that effect to an extent and then having gyros for detecting any
movement not natural feeling could be automatically corrected for with computer control
of the steering. You don't believe everything you read on Wiki do you, Since you could
have went and wrote an article against it and post it then I can go and write one for it
It isn't always a reliable source and of course if they don't want it to even be considered
for future use (by making more efficent vehicles) then of course you will not hear about
it but if you do it is always in a negative conotation.
Motorcycles work by having 2 gyroscopes/flywheel and they don't go flying off the face
of the planet(road) and actually are easy to steer. If you put a heavier flywheel just
in the realm of a few ounces on a dirtbike engine(2 stroke) it makes the motor react
completely different and you can ride it in conditions that would be unbearable with a
too light flywheel of course it makes it take longer to decelerate and just like anything in
this world has it's pluses and trade offs. A flywheel powertrain mounted in a gimble will
allow the designers to actually control and even enhance the road handling of a vehicle
don't you think? By exploiting the same(bad) effect. Of course getting that power to the
ground through the gimble axles would be a challenge or would it.
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  #4  
Old 04-01-2008, 01:57 PM
KelVarnson KelVarnson is offline
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The really high-end energy storage flywheels are completely encased in a vacuum chamber, and use an electromagnet/permanent magnet interface for moving energy in and out of the wheel. They are pretty small, are manufactured out of materials like Kevlar and carbon fiber, and rotate at REALLY high speeds. The most high-tech ones also ride on magnetic bearings.
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Old 04-01-2008, 03:15 PM
aurgathor aurgathor is offline
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I'm not saying that flywheel energy storage can't work, I'm saying that it has already been tried, and didn't catch on, plus there are certain issues in an automotive environment that you failed to mention.

As for your dirtbike example, the RPM and mass are way too small for any significant amount of energy storage, or much effect on the bike.

IMHO, regenerative breaking with a combo electric motor/generator is better for vehicles, while the flywheel, due to it's simplicity could be better for stationary applications requiring relatively short term storage.

And BTW, wiki is reasonably well peer reviewed, and often contain links to the original source of information.
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Old 04-02-2008, 06:19 AM
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Do you know how those freestyle motorcyclist control their bikes so well? It is
by the flywheel effect. If you tap the rear brake the rear end goes up, and
versa vice if you nail the throttle it drops the rear end. So you are posting your
opinion as fact, well this ll goes out the window now don't it!!
Guess what ethanol fuel (or gasahol) was tried before and didn't catch on, SO
why the heck are we doing it again? A lot of things have changed and the cad
designing, materials and the reliability and level of precision in computer controls
has increased dramatically in the last 15 years even, let alone 50 years.
I guess you can't compress water so I give up, and you can just stick to your
oil corporation dogma, And try and blast everything out that doesn't jib with that.
Wiki links to original sources of info? Like the website with the reports that were
paid for with big oil dollars, I guess that wiki where it says that tobacco is good
for your health is correct since it links to a an original source of information or
more like misinformation!! (of course I made up the wiki about tobacco for effect)
(but it is probably an available source somewhere) DOn't believe everything you read
especially on the internet since a website can be had for pretty cheap and it can
say whatever the owner wants. Plus Facts are meaningless, They can be used to
prove anything. H.S.
Go out and do the experiments yourself, you can ride a dirtbike and just do a small 2 foot jump and experience the effect yourself, No website or written facts needed.
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  #7  
Old 04-03-2008, 05:33 PM
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There are 2 problems with using a heavy flywheel for energy storage, the first is they take a lot of energy to initially spin up and the second the gyroscope effect on the vehicle. Yes motorcycles use the gyroscope effect for stability on the road and control in the air but the wheels on a motorcycle weigh maybe 20#.
The reason a heavy gyro would make a car unstable is because once a gyro reaches a certain point its axis of rotation will try to abruptly shift 90 degrees, an easy way to demonstrate the shift is to hold on to either side of a bicycle tire and spin it then slowly tilt the wheel to the side, as the angle approaches 45 degrees the axis will change and the wheel will get hard to control.
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Old 04-05-2008, 09:52 PM
monckywrench monckywrench is offline
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"If a 200 pound flywheel was used to store the energy of let's say a 2 cylinder 350cc motor it would have the apparent torque of a much larger motor while burning a lot less fuel." "Of course a torque convertor would have to be developed that could handle a constant spin since the motor would always be at a set rpm and keeping the flywheel moving,"

Build a test rig and find out. An old truck chassis would do since it would allow room for drivetrain mods. Governor your engine of choice to your rpm of choice, and perhaps use an electronically controlled automatic transmission for the torque converter. A very large cooler should do for test purposes.
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Old 04-05-2008, 11:31 PM
KelVarnson KelVarnson is offline
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Every vehicle that I have ever read about that used a flywheel for energy storage coupled the energy in and out electrically. That seems like it would be the most straightforward way to do it, because it would be very easily controllable and there would be very little loss.

Also, most of the flywheel concept vehicles I have read about used multiple flywheels, spinning in opposite directions, so that the precession effects would cancel out.

The biggest challenge actually appears to be safety. If you get in an accident, those flywheels are not going to just stop spinning. If they have a lot of energy stored in them, think "Tasmanian Devil". Much of the work has been focused on making enclosures that can contain them in the event of an accident. It's also an argument for making multiple, smaller flywheels, as opposed to a couple of bigger ones.
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Old 04-06-2008, 01:19 AM
LastSplash LastSplash is offline
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I would think the best way to utilize a flywheel energy storage system would be at each wheel to recover the energy lost as heat during braking. If you could design a coupling or a set of clutches that would engage when the brakes are applied, then disengage as the vehicle stops, then during acceleration the flyweel engages again to assist the engine.
I think there are a few cars that such a system has/is been used on, but I dont know how well they work or how reliable they are.
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Old 04-06-2008, 10:44 AM
monckywrench monckywrench is offline
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"I would think the best way to utilize a flywheel energy storage system would be at each wheel to recover the energy lost as heat during braking"

Too complex, which is why regenerative braking is used with EVs instead. Electrical solutions tend to be simpler than mechanical solutions.
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Old 04-06-2008, 01:18 PM
KelVarnson KelVarnson is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by monckywrench View Post
Too complex, which is why regenerative braking is used with EVs instead. Electrical solutions tend to be simpler than mechanical solutions.
I have to agree. The other aspect is, in order for a flywheel to store enough energy to be useful in a vehicular application, it would have to be either extremely massive, or it would have to spin extremely fast.

Massive is "out" for vehicle applications, for obvious reasons, so we're talking about a smaller wheel or wheels, spinning at tens of thousands of RPMs. Gearing it down to a speed suitable for vehicular applications would be impractical and inefficient. Doing it electrically is a piece of cake, with existing technology.

Not to mention, any serious application of a high-efficiency flywheel is going to be encased in a vacuum. A mechanical approach would mean seals, which would have a significant pressure differential accross them. An electrical approach would allow a completely encased flywheel, without seals.
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Old 04-06-2008, 01:18 PM
 
 
 
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