If Ford wants to stay in the game.....

[IceboxFX]

Originally Posted by David85

Some food for thought............

http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/findacar.htm This is the MPG for the 1992 ford F150 (19 MPG highway revised to 17).



http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/findacar.htm This is the MPG for the 1986 ford F150 (25 MPG highway revised to 23)












Why is the older truck more efficient than the 1992? and why is it that even after revisions to the MPG testing standards that a 1986 ford F150 can get 23MPG in CARBURETOR fueled engine?

because of stupid **** like emissions.. same reason the 08 6.4's are getting less than 10mpgs. they want the cars to let out less tailpipe emissions, and in return our vehicles are burning 2-3 times as much fuel.

[IceboxFX]

Originally Posted by David85

I would expect to see an adjustment in the price of diesel compared to gasoline in the next few years. This is not a supply problem, the refining is limited, and that allows speculators to push the price up. All this means is that it would only get more profitable to invest in refining capacity. At least thats how its supposed to work. As it is right now, the price of diesel can't go much higher before demand will start to drop off. As stated by others, there is a choice of what fuel you want to burn, and sooner or later the market will re-adjust.

your right here, fuel is a commodity and investors push the price of crude oil up, not supply and demand, or oil companies. and i agree with you that ford should put a diesel in the 150's. there is no reason to disagree. it is a known fact that diesels are more efficent than gasoline cars. most european cars run on diesel. why? because its more efficient. not only are most of the cars there diesel, but the manufacturers offer more diesels as an option in europe, among other contries. offering a diesel in any vehicle is a smart idea

[David85]

Originally Posted by IceboxFX

because of stupid **** like emissions.. same reason the 08 6.4's are getting less than 10mpgs. they want the cars to let out less tailpipe emissions, and in return our vehicles are burning 2-3 times as much fuel.

I'm not quite sure I buy that anymore. It may be true with the diesels, but many gas engines are available right now that get great fuel economy and low emissions at the same time. The catch is none of them are available in a ford, at least not in this continent.

I know this is not very loyal of me, but if we take the example the honda accord, or civic, we see that even with emission standards tighter than ever before, these cars are getting close to 50 MPG on pump gas. Lets see the american version of the ford focus do that. Thats already on par with the prius hybrid, though still not as good as the volkswagon TDIs.

I like hybrids as a concept, but the parallel hybrid crap that all of the automakers are selling right now are just that - crap. The MPG advantage is an insult, and a true hybrid (series hybrid) is capable of much better MPG, but to date no one has marketed one on a large scale.

[YoGeorge]

Originally Posted by David85

I'm not quite sure I buy that anymore. It may be true with the diesels, but many gas engines are available right now that get great fuel economy and low emissions at the same time. The catch is none of them are available in a ford, at least not in this continent.

I know this is not very loyal of me, but if we take the example the honda accord, or civic, we see that even with emission standards tighter than ever before, these cars are getting close to 50 MPG on pump gas. Lets see the american version of the ford focus do that. Thats already on par with the prius hybrid, though still not as good as the volkswagon TDIs.

I like hybrids as a concept, but the parallel hybrid crap that all of the automakers are selling right now are just that - crap. The MPG advantage is an insult, and a true hybrid (series hybrid) is capable of much better MPG, but to date no one has marketed one on a large scale.

Something like a current Mustang GT would beat the heck out of almost any 60's or 70's small block Mustang while weighing more and getting 50% better gas mileage on the freeway.

The reason most trucks are getting bad mileage is because they weigh 50% more than the earlier models, have double the horsepower, and double the frontal area, tires that are twice as wide, etc.

Emissions laws killed performance cars and resulted in bad gas mileage in the 70's, but with the universal adoption of fuel injection, roller cams, overdrive transmissions, etc, we now have superior performance AND gas mileage in modern machines.

Compare apples to apples, and the "good old days" ain't *that* good.

I'm an old guy who owned a couple Chrysler hemi cars, a couple 2-seat 390 AMX's, a couple Corvettes, etc from the good old days, and that same kind of performance is available now in cars that start every morning in the winter, have air conditioning, don't take constant tuning and maintenance, and are actually comfortable. My hemi cars got about 8 mpg, the AMX's maybe 12 mpg, 14 on the road. Of course, the modern stuff doesn't have as much "personality", but that's because people complain about noise, bad handling (try taking a hemi Roadrunner around a road course), and other factors that were major tradeoffs back in the day...

George

[irishammer]

Originally Posted by David85

I'm not quite sure I buy that anymore. It may be true with the diesels, but many gas engines are available right now that get great fuel economy and low emissions at the same time. The catch is none of them are available in a ford, at least not in this continent.

I know this is not very loyal of me, but if we take the example the honda accord, or civic, we see that even with emission standards tighter than ever before, these cars are getting close to 50 MPG on pump gas. Lets see the american version of the ford focus do that. Thats already on par with the prius hybrid, though still not as good as the volkswagon TDIs.

I like hybrids as a concept, but the parallel hybrid crap that all of the automakers are selling right now are just that - crap. The MPG advantage is an insult, and a true hybrid (series hybrid) is capable of much better MPG, but to date no one has marketed one on a large scale.

I thought we were discussing trucks here. I am quite sure a Focus cannot pull my camper and it has no room for hunting gear! As far as a 1992 F150 mine had the 302 got worse mileage than my 2004 and couldn't get out of it's own way even when empty!! I have been on trips with Chebbies that "average" in the 20's and they used the same amout of gas as me but "got" 2 mpg better for the same miles travelled....hmmmm. My pencil must need to be calibrated! The trucks are all real close in MPG, HP and TQ.

[BURNSTOUGHFORD]

Originally Posted by excaliber551

The problem is no trucks average 18MPG. Some don't even get that on the freeway.

Now if it could average 18MPG that would be totally different.

I have several times with my truck before i made any mods to it... best to date was with my stock 4.6l in the truck in my sig with my race quad in the bed... got 18.5 round trip of about 350 miles.....

with my detuned 5.4l right now i average 16 on the high way and i by no means am easy on it... set the cruise at 75 and let her eat...

My mpg droped by 1 when i put my heavy ass micky thompson MTZ's on it... but thats no big deal...just switch back to a good at...

I think its mostly in how you drive when it comes to these trucks... a budy of myne has a 04 screw with 3:73 and complains about his milage, but when i was following him in town one night he would leave me at ever stop light cause he would jack rabbit around from stop light to stop light...

[David85]

My point was that cars are getting more fuel efficient, while trucks are not. Other companies are making more fuel efficient cars year after year, ford is not...........

It is possible to make a fullsize truck economical (as the MPG numbers I posted show), but so far that priority has gone out the window to favor horsepower at all cost. If toyota can deliver on their claims, than it really doesn't matter how loyal a following ford has, sooner or later the odjective individual has to be ojective.

[fonefiddy]

As I've said a hundred times. The F150 has become a bloated pig. 5500+ lb curb weight is unbelievable. If they would just get the dang thing back to 4000 lbs, and work on the aerodynamics. Heck, cleaning up the under flow alone, would prolly gain 2-3 MPG . They could be above 20 MPG with the engines they have today.
With a a small displacement, direct injected, forced induction engine, they'd be right around 25+ MPG. Without sacrificing what most peeps use their truck for. A daily commuter that hauls 1,2 times a month.

[YoGeorge]

Originally Posted by fonefiddy

As I've said a hundred times. The F150 has become a bloated pig. 5500+ lb curb weight is unbelievable. If they would just get the dang thing back to 4000 lbs, and work on the aerodynamics. Heck, cleaning up the under flow alone, would prolly gain 2-3 MPG . They could be above 20 MPG with the engines they have today.
With a a small displacement, direct injected, forced induction engine, they'd be right around 25+ MPG. Without sacrificing what most peeps use their truck for. A daily commuter that hauls 1,2 times a month.

Although I used cars as an example, I bought a '78 Ford F100 pickup, 300 inch six, 4 speed manual O/D, 2.75 axle ratio which made it useless for towing or heavy loads. It would regularly get an honest 20-22 mpg on the freeway at slower speeds and it weighed probably 3600 lbs(?). A big part of the weight increase of the new trucks, besides the hugeness, is the fact that they have the full back seat of a car added to them, together with heated and cooled seats, lots of insulation, etc. Makes soccer moms happy, along with the rest of the population who have the mentality of a living room recliner with two cupholders and a 50" TV....we are a lot fatter and lazier than in the old days. Heck, I had to CRANK the windows up in that old pickup. And shift gears.

And in comparison to my old pickup, I've now got an '02 E150 with a 4.6, weighs probably 5300 lbs and has a larger frontal area than my old pickup. I regularly get an honest 17-18.5 mpg on the freeway, and if I drove at the slower speeds I did in the late 70's and early 80's with that pickup, when we had a 55 mph speed limit, I could probably get 19-20 mpg. Given the fact that my van has a much larger frontal area than the old pickup, goes much faster, weighs a LOT more, has a 3.55 rear axle ratio, I'd say that there is a significant improvement in mileage. If the old pickup had an automatic transmission, it probably would have gotten mileage similar to my van...

I would bet that the drivetrain out of my old van in the body of my '78 Ford pickup would perform better AND get better mileage than the old 300 inch six. But the old pickup didn't even have cupholders, or carpeting, or air bags, or a back seat...(it did have A/C). It weighed roughly the same as a current Mustang, actually.

George

[Monsta]

Originally Posted by IceboxFX

most european cars run on diesel. why? because its more efficient. not only are most of the cars there diesel, but the manufacturers offer more diesels as an option in europe, among other contries. offering a diesel in any vehicle is a smart idea

Actually around 50% of the cars sold in Europe are diesel. Do most Europeans like diesels? No. Would they rather have a 300HP Mustang suckin' down $3.50+ a gallon premium every 25 miles. Yes. But...as what seems to escape many of you who make this "argument"... they have diesels because diesel fuel is cheaper! It is not taxed as heavily as gasoline. While they'd love to cruise in that fine American 'Stang...at $7 a gallon it ain't gonna happen.

Their refiners are set up for this as well. Europe actually EXPORTS gasoline to the US. We are at basically full capacity for diesel production. We can't get a whole lot more from elsewhere since China & India are growing and using ... you guessed it ... diesel to power everything from powerplants to their little imported European DIESEL cars/trucklets.

Diesel is not the magic bullet any longer, as it looks now. Ford (et al) have been designing and building smaller, cleaner diesels in the hope of putting them in more vehicles but the tide is turning. They waited too long, IMHO.

Emission regulations & diesel prices (if they continue to rise) will kill the chance of a lot of diesel choices (or any) in a half-ton. Sure they'll put them in but it'll be a pretty penny and one that won't be recovered quickly based on fuel savings...if at all. Thank the EPA for that one.

Thank to the safety Nazis for the weight of today's cars and you can thank McDonalds. They "made" or should I say, "supersized" Americans to the point where most can't fit in a compact truck. <---(very tongue in cheek, BTW.) Most of the weight is for crash protection and the weight of all the electronics and safety gizmos.

As pointed out above; what Ford needs to do is make the trucks lighter, develop GOOD, reliable 6+ speed transmissions and even develop a two speed rear end. Even an Over/Under aux tranny as an option would help satisfy most....well...me.

[David85]

Originally Posted by YoGeorge

Although I used cars as an example, I bought a '78 Ford F100 pickup, 300 inch six, 4 speed manual O/D, 2.75 axle ratio which made it useless for towing or heavy loads. It would regularly get an honest 20-22 mpg on the freeway at slower speeds and it weighed probably 3600 lbs(?). A big part of the weight increase of the new trucks, besides the hugeness, is the fact that they have the full back seat of a car added to them, together with heated and cooled seats, lots of insulation, etc. Makes soccer moms happy, along with the rest of the population who have the mentality of a living room recliner with two cupholders and a 50" TV....we are a lot fatter and lazier than in the old days. Heck, I had to CRANK the windows up in that old pickup. And shift gears.

And in comparison to my old pickup, I've now got an '02 E150 with a 4.6, weighs probably 5300 lbs and has a larger frontal area than my old pickup. I regularly get an honest 17-18.5 mpg on the freeway, and if I drove at the slower speeds I did in the late 70's and early 80's with that pickup, when we had a 55 mph speed limit, I could probably get 19-20 mpg. Given the fact that my van has a much larger frontal area than the old pickup, goes much faster, weighs a LOT more, has a 3.55 rear axle ratio, I'd say that there is a significant improvement in mileage. If the old pickup had an automatic transmission, it probably would have gotten mileage similar to my van...

I would bet that the drivetrain out of my old van in the body of my '78 Ford pickup would perform better AND get better mileage than the old 300 inch six. But the old pickup didn't even have cupholders, or carpeting, or air bags, or a back seat...(it did have A/C). It weighed roughly the same as a current Mustang, actually.

George

I'm willing to bet that if your 78 ford had 3.55 gears and a ZF 5 or 6 speed to would have probably got the same MPG but gained in towing.

[YoGeorge]

Originally Posted by David85

I'm willing to bet that if your 78 ford had 3.55 gears and a ZF 5 or 6 speed to would have probably got the same MPG but gained in towing.

Absolutely, but with the teeny 1 barrel carb, it still wouldn't have performed like the newer 4.6 engine in my van, which has less displacement but with fuel injection and computer controlled ignition, etc. I remember it having a really lumpy idle for its whole life, and pinging for its whole life, and being a bit hard to start in the winter, etc. But changing plugs was great

I really like straight sixes and would have loved to see Ford do a serious update on the 300 inch six, along the lines of GM's 3800 V6 or small block V8, or AMC's 4 liter six which just went away this year (and I had an old AMC 232 in my '70 Gremlin--the car stunk, but the engine was cool).

Yeah, with that old toploader O/D and 2.75 axle, my final drive ratio was like 2.19, about 1600 RPM at 60 mph from what I recall. Knowing what I know now, I would have ordered it with a 3.25 axle.

George

[Remmy]

25 mpg in a "typical" half-ton truck will not happen, unless there is a substantial change in technology. With the mandated switch to "Ultra Low Sulfur Diesel" and the latest tier in emissions the new powerstrokes are lucky to get over 12 miles per gallon. In the good old days 25 mpg highway may have been possible but it isn't going to happen now. The fuel is less efficient and the emissions requirements are so stringent every diesel manufacturer has taken an additional mileage hit. I don't think the VW diesel would even be legal for sale anymore with the latest EPA standards.


Got to love the government and their brilliant decisions to keep us less dependant on foreign oil. LOL

Just my 2 cents worth.

[tjthegreat]

If ford did a serious update on the 300 I6 id be in line for one.and im sure a lot of other people would to.

[93RangerXL4x2]

fords on top of the game.