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  #1  
Old 03-20-2008, 07:16 AM
browe browe is offline
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DSE in action

I've been lurking in the forum for a long time as I've been debating moving to a diesel vehicle to use bio. I witnessed DSE in action last night for the first time. Here is the process that was used:

Filter 40 gallons of used veg oil into drum #1

Pump that veg oil into drum #2 thru a filter

In drum #2, add 2 gallons regular gas, 4 gallons kerocyne, 7 ounces of the DSE solution, and 32 ounces of "clear diesel".

Pump drum #2 into drum #3 thru another filter. At this point the fuel is basically ready. The only remaining step is to pump the contents of drum #3 into a larger tank used to fill up the truck.

The final step is water separation. The tank used for filling up the truck has a filter on the hose to separate the water out as the fuel is pumped into the truck.

This process has been used by my friend for about 7 months. I think his truck is either a 2006 or 2007 F250.

So based on the process above, what is the "bad" part of what he is doing?
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Old 03-20-2008, 10:16 AM
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There are only 2 ways to use WVO in a diesel without LONGTERM damage. Convert to QUALITY biodiesel, or spend the $$$$ to install a heated system and run WVO. Adding gasoline and kerosene and their "special" additive just lowers the viscosity. Using UNHEATED WVO in any form will result in coking of the injectors, and will build up behind the piston ring resulting in excessive cylinder wear.


Even using heated WVO is problematic if you do not prepare the WVO properly, as will using "raw" unwashed biodiesel.

I've been making and using biodiesel in multiple diesels for over 4 years. I've had my biodiesel tested several times and it has ALWAYS exceeded ASTM specs. I have yet to have a fuel related problem with any of my engines.

If you have a POS truck and don't care about the life of your engine then go ahead and use it, but I will not take the chance of ruining any of my diesels................
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  #3  
Old 03-20-2008, 10:35 AM
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MLCRI$I$ II MLCRI$I$ II is offline
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You're kidding.....

Quote:
Originally Posted by browe
I've been lurking in the forum for a long time as I've been debating moving to a diesel vehicle to use bio. I witnessed DSE in action last night for the first time. Here is the process that was used:

Filter 40 gallons of used veg oil into drum #1

Pump that veg oil into drum #2 thru a filter

In drum #2, add 2 gallons regular gas, 4 gallons kerocyne, 7 ounces of the DSE solution, and 32 ounces of "clear diesel".

Pump drum #2 into drum #3 thru another filter. At this point the fuel is basically ready. The only remaining step is to pump the contents of drum #3 into a larger tank used to fill up the truck.

The final step is water separation. The tank used for filling up the truck has a filter on the hose to separate the water out as the fuel is pumped into the truck.

This process has been used by my friend for about 7 months. I think his truck is either a 2006 or 2007 F250.

So based on the process above, what is the "bad" part of what he is doing?
......right? However, WELCOME. Stop lurking already and keep posting.
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  #4  
Old 03-20-2008, 10:39 AM
browe browe is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fabmandelux
There are only 2 ways to use WVO in a diesel without LONGTERM damage. Convert to QUALITY biodiesel, or spend the $$$$ to install a heated system and run WVO. Adding gasoline and kerosene and their "special" additive just lowers the viscosity. Using UNHEATED WVO in any form will result in coking of the injectors, and will build up behind the piston ring resulting in excessive cylinder wear.


Even using heated WVO is problematic if you do not prepare the WVO properly, as will using "raw" unwashed biodiesel.

I've been making and using biodiesel in multiple diesels for over 4 years. I've had my biodiesel tested several times and it has ALWAYS exceeded ASTM specs. I have yet to have a fuel related problem with any of my engines.

If you have a POS truck and don't care about the life of your engine then go ahead and use it, but I will not take the chance of ruining any of my diesels................
I failed to add something to my first message. My buddy just ordered a WVO heater for his truck. Can he remove the 7 oz of diesel secret stuff from his equation at that point?
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  #5  
Old 03-20-2008, 12:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by browe
I've been lurking in the forum for a long time
If you've been "lurking" for a long time here, you already know the arguments both for and against the process.

With your description, I find it hard to believe the fuel is water free. I, too, use a water block filter but I know they are of very limited value when it comes to WVO.
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  #6  
Old 03-20-2008, 04:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by firemediceric
If you've been "lurking" for a long time here, you already know the arguments both for and against the process.

With your description, I find it hard to believe the fuel is water free. I, too, use a water block filter but I know they are of very limited value when it comes to WVO.
I've seen general statements pro and con. I'm looking for specifics based on the process I outlined.
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  #7  
Old 03-20-2008, 07:03 PM
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I have often said that DSE is preying and profiting on people's ignorance. DSE would have you believe that the process is much simpiliar and quicker than the often successful steps to blending are. That said, the fact that DSE is still around taking people's money is a testimonial that blending does work.

As someone who is active in reading on various forums, I haven't seen anymore negative first hand reports on blending than I have regarding two tank WVO systems and biodiesel.

I think there are many people that get started with DSE and then tweak the process to make a better quality fuel than one would with the simplistic DSE process. If DSE or the DSE type process was destroying as many vehicles as some would have you believe, I really think you would see more negative first hand reports than what I have been reading.

The info-pop Solvent Thinning forum ( general solvent thinning discussion - Forum Powered by eve community )
I mentioned has a lot of people with good experiences. Bork, who is also here, uses a different blend than I do, but he has put many many miles on his E-350 with good results. BK on info pop uses a different filter set up than I do, but he also has had good experiences. Sushi Blender is definitely the most knowledgable person there. Read everything you can that he has posted. Also look for old posts by Kugel and Tim Cook.


Here is a cut and paste from another response I made. It may have more info than you want, but if it doesn't answer your questions just let me know and I'll be happy to elaborate.

I got started with the DSE stuff. I then did a lot more research. I continue to use the basic process, but I no longer use their additive and I have added some steps.

I have not heard first hand of anyone having any problem with the process beyond clogged filters. I have yet to clog a filter in my truck. I have only clogged the filter in the Mercedes that came with the car when I bought it, since then the junk has been cleaned out of the tank just through use and no problems since. In the begining I went through filters on my fuel processing station pretty regularly, but since changing up my process a little, my filters last hundreds of gallons. I probably have 600 gallons on the present ones now.

Here's what I do: I used to collect my oil by either picking up the cubies the restaurant has set out for me or by using a pump to pull the oil out of a dumpster and put it into 5 gallon buckets. Now I have a Super Sucker made out of 120 gallon propane tank. I put the tank under vacuum and pick up 120 gallons in about 20 minutes.

My first 55 gallon drum has a hole cut in it the allows a 5 gallon bucket to be inserted like a cork in a bottle. This 5 gallon bucket has a bunch of holes drilled in the bottom. I line this bucket with a pillow case (I buy them at the thrift shop for 50 cents each.) I pour the oil into the pillow case and wait for it to filter through. I stop pouring as soon as I see water or any junk going into the pillow case.

After I have filled up the 55 gallon drum I do a VERY simple mist wash. I used to use a pump sprayer. Now I use a sprinkler head on a garden hose. My hope is that this will balance out any Ph issues as well as further flush out any contaminates. I spray several gallons of water, usually about 5 gallons/10% of the volume of the WVO, over the oil. After letting it sit for a day or more, I drain the water off of the bottom. I then drop in a heating element and heat the oil to 120* for 6 hours while a small fan blows air across the surface of the oil. I then let it settle as long as possible, anywhere from a week to a couple of months depending on how soon I need it.

You'll be amazed at how much stuff settles out over time.

A few days before I need the oil I transfer it through the DSE recomended filter set up and into a second 55 gallon drum, leaving behind the bottom 6" or so to be disposed of later. Once in the second drum, I heat the oil one more time as above and then let it settle again for a few days. I can't really tell you why I do this, except that I like to err on the side of caution and this is an easy step to repeat. I then transfer one more time into my third and final drum which I call my Blending drum.

On the DSE filter set up I do use a better pump then they suggest and I also wrap the two whole house filters with paper towels. The paper towels can be peeled off when they get clogged and it lets me get more use out of the actual filters. Once in the blending drum, I add the kerosene. Sometimes as little as 10%, sometimes as much as 30%. I add 5% RUG. Instead of the DSE stuff, I'm using naptha at the rate DSE recommends their stuff be used.

If you look at the MSDS for DSE you'll see that it's primarily naptha and some xylene. Both can be bought at Lowe's for about $14 per gallon or $6 per quart. That's a whole lot less expensive than the DSE stuff. I've read both that the xylene allows the waterblock filter to catch suspended water and that the naptha allows any water that remains in the fuel to be processed by the vehicle without issue. I have no actual proof of those claims, but I reason that those additives certainly cannot hurt and may help, with viscosity if nothing else. I have gotten away from using the xylene as I have read it may not be kind to fuel lines. I haven't noticed any negatives since dropping the xylene. Naptha is also high in Cetane and low in Octane. People have blended with up to 50% naptha with good results, although it's cost prohibitive.

Diesel Kleen has actually been shown to increase the chances of polymerization, so I don't use that anymore.

Every now and again I also add some StarTron to the vehicle per the directions on the lable as an algacide. I put a whole bottle of the stuff in my tanks when I first got started just to clean them out. You can get it at West Marine.

So far everything is working well.
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  #8  
Old 03-20-2008, 08:23 PM
AndysFords AndysFords is offline
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GREAT! I started 1.5 years ago, running WVO and making Biodiesel as well. I have 2 Powerstroke Fords, 2 93 Model 5.9l Dodges, 1 84 and 1 88 Ford Diesel. The PowerStrokes have never seen anything other than good biodiesel, mainly because I haven't been brave enough to try anything else. The rest of my trucks run on anywhere from straight to half WVO, depending on temp. No conversions, except Heated Fuel Filters on the 84 and 88. No serious problems at all, replaced the Injection pump on 88 soon after starting running oil, man at pump shop said it looked well worn already, so I don't think that was oil related, have 15,000 miles since replacing pump and still runs great. Have done absolutely nothing to other trucks, the Dodges have only one tank and will even start on the mixture in the cold mornings, have started them on 50/50 in 35 degree weather. The Fords won't hardly start on diesel fuel when its 35 degrees, but they come with two tanks anyway so I just switch to diesel before shutdown. I just bought the second dodge, however the first one has 10,000 miles on it running oil, at average cost of diesel fuel 3.50 a gallon and 15 miles per gallon, thats 666 gallons or $2333 . I can buy a used engine for it for $1000 or get a rebuild kit for not much more than that. At that much money I've saved, and they're all still running strong, I would not have a problem with having to have the Injector Pump and Injectors replaced, but I probably won't have to for a while. So you can say what you want about snake oil or say"NOT IN MY DIESELS", but whatever, I'm laughing my head off driving by the gas stations all day long!
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  #9  
Old 03-21-2008, 08:34 AM
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Its amazing to see the differences in opinion on blending vs heating/converting. I have been watching a lot of forums for a while and have never seen anyone say that they destroyed a motor from blending, only heard people say that it will.

FiremedicEric, How many miles have you put on your powerstroke with the blended fuel? If I decide to go the blend route, should I buy the DSE starter kit to at least get the instructions for the filtering and preparation? Also the starter of this thread said his friend uses kerosene and regular gas. Do you use anything other than kerosene, WVO, naptha and some xylene?
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Old 03-21-2008, 09:03 AM
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[QUOTE=Boss300]Its amazing to see the differences in opinion on blending vs heating/converting.

It's like a religion to many and any thing other than what they do is heresay. IMO, each process, BD, vehicle conversion and blending, all have their pros and cons.

I have been watching a lot of forums for a while and have never seen anyone say that they destroyed a motor from blending, only heard people say that it will.

There are some pics of a VW TDI that are pretty scary. There is also a lot of discussion and speculation on the actual cause of the catastrauphic damage. I have also read of a couple of people trashing injectors, but that was on straight veg oil that contained a caustic grill cleaner and is the reason I incorporated the mist wash.

FiremedicEric, How many miles have you put on your powerstroke with the blended fuel?

I can't say for sure for miles without pulling some mainenance records, but I can tell you that I started doing this in the truck in April of 2006. I then bought the MB in July of '06. The MB definitely sees more miles than the truck, as that's what I use for commuting to my job due to the better MPG.

If I decide to go the blend route, should I buy the DSE starter kit to at least get the instructions for the filtering and preparation?

I wouldn't waste the money. If you PM me with an e-mail address I can send you pics of my set up. Save the money you'd give to DSE for the materials for the filtering station. Also, spend a little time on the info-pop Solvent Thinning section. Look for posts by Tim Cook, Sushi Blender, Sun Wizard, Bork, John Galt, DN, BK Hosken, Kugel; there are just so many knowledgable and helpful people there.

Also the starter of this thread said his friend uses kerosene and regular gas. Do you use anything other than kerosene, WVO, naptha and some xylene?

I have a hard time finding K-1 where I'm at, so I have to pay a little x-tra to get Jet-A instead. I stopped using the xylene for reasons sited in the other post. I am also adding a little turpentine on Sushi Blender's recommendation.[/QUOTE]

I'm not too computer savvy. I tried to put the answers right under the questions, but I didn't do it correctly. If you read through the quote, you'll see my answers.
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  #11  
Old 03-21-2008, 11:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by firemediceric

I wouldn't waste the money. If you PM me with an e-mail address I can send you pics of my set up. Save the money you'd give to DSE for the materials for the filtering station. Also, spend a little time on the info-pop Solvent Thinning section. Look for posts by Tim Cook, Sushi Blender, Sun Wizard, Bork, John Galt, DN, BK Hosken, Kugel; there are just so many knowledgable and helpful people there.
I tried to PM you to get your setup pics but I guess I need to be a member of the forum longer. Maybe you can PM me?
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Old 03-22-2008, 07:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by browe
I tried to PM you to get your setup pics but I guess I need to be a member of the forum longer. Maybe you can PM me?
I tried to PM you, but it says you have chosen not to receive PMs. Must be a setting you need to change?

Go to info pop and PM me from there. I have the same screen name over there
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Old 03-22-2008, 07:20 AM
 
 
 
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