The HHO injection thread

[George D.]

I figured I would start a thread for all of us that are planning on expirementing with HHO injection and electrolisers so we could all share our plans and results.

My plan is to make an electroliser out of a 4"x3' section go pvc pipe using 3' sections of 1/4" allthread as cathodes and anodes. It will sit horizontaly with the allthread evenly spaced all the way around it basicly looking like a revolver. It will be fed by a 5 gallon bucket as a tank to keep the electrodes submerged at all times. I may use two off the same bucket if the first doesn't produse enough browns gass. Thats about as far as I've got on my plans so far.

I would apreciate any thoughts or suggestions. Especialy from Dave S. and David 85 as I know you are both thinking of building your own.

[chris1066]

OK you got my attention. Looks like I need a crash course in chemistry. From what I've read so far you are using electricity to seperate the hydrogen and oxygen. I am assuming that baking soda is an excellerant to help speed up the process. The electrodes that I've read about ranged form coat hangers to stainless steel rods. I belive it said somewhere that plates would be better because of the increased surface area?

I have a few questions:

How big does the generator have to be for are engine size? 1 gallon? 2 gallon? I know some of this depends on what you use for electrodes and how much baking soda is used.

Why is stainless better? Is it because it is more resitant to the electrolysis. Would sections of say screen door screen work better? (more suface area)

How close to the engine does the generator have to be? Could it be mounted in the bed and a hose ran up to the intake?

Could somthing like a dimmer switch be used to verey the voltage and output?

One last question I read in a few posts and on some sites that this process make heat. How much and is it enough that somone needs to be worried about cooling the system?

I know I'm asking alot of questions and this is new to everyone, but a rough idea would be a help.

[George D.]

Yes I'm talking about seperating Hydrogen and oxygen from water. Yes backing soda is a good excelerant.

Yes there are many things to make electrodes out of stainles is a good choice because it is more resistant to corrosion. An I belive window screen would add suface area but I would be inclined to think it would corrode threw rather quickly could be wrong.

As for size of the generater I'm not sure yet Dave S. has some info abot it about half way don this http://www.ford-trucks.com/forums/72...etter-mpg.html beyond that it will be trial and error wich is kinda why i started this thread.

The generator could be mounted practicly any ware with a hose ran to the intake ducting befor the turbo. I think the bed would be the safest mounting location because of the explosive possibility.

yes something like a dimmer swich could work for verying voltage weath an actual dimmer swich could handle the amprege I'm not so sure but you could find a sutible reostat at a radio shack but not sure one would be needed given the amount of air these engines pull I think it would take one big generator to need to tone it down at times. should be able to run it full bore as long as the engines running and the glow pluggs are off. Only time will tell.

It will produce heat in the generator so it will need to hold enough water to keep it from reaching boiling temp or some sort of cooler could be added. If anything I would think it would lower EGT's.

This is all what makes sence in my head and may be completly wrong as this is new to me as with every one els but I would like to give this the old college try. Necessity is the mother of all invention.

[David85]

First off, BE CAREFUL here!

DO NOT use table salt as an electrolyte as this will generate chlorine gas, which is very bad for your engine, and also not so good for you either (lets just say its not a nice way to go).

Be aware that hydrogen gas is explosive in a VERY wide mixture range, unlike LPG, CNG, or other petro-fumes which generally require. The good news is that the autoignition point is over 900F so it will not ignite before the diesel, but I would take care to make sure the generator does not activate while the glow plugs are on.



Baking soda seems to be the easiest to use, and has been done by Parkland (7.3L powerstroke forum). This is the thread:

http://www.ford-trucks.com/forums/68...002-7-3-a.html


You can use nearly any metal for electrodes, but steel will rust away very quickly and leave a big mess to clean up when its done. SS is expensive, but not too bad if you use something like Tig rod from a wielding supply. Sheet is ideal because it has the highest surface area, and that makes the generator more efficient allowing you to use less electrolyte (in this case baking soda).

Too much amps going through the generator will boil the water and thats basically the limit of the generator. I have not done much testing with this yet, so I can't be sure what would work for a control system, or how large the generator should be.

The generation happens nearly instantly upon applying voltage to the electrodes, so it could probably be placed in the bed at least as a test. Ideally it should be as close to the intake for the best response. Be careful to prevent water/electrolyte from getting into the intake.

[chris1066]

I've been reading the thread in the powerstroke forum and was wondering if anybody found out anything on the embrittlement problem and if it would affect this?

Stupid question but when you run water injection wouldn't the heat from cumbustion have a similar affect on the water? By that I mean seperate the oxygen and hydrogen wihtin the burn.


Just thinking outload again! Maybe thinking too much. LOL

[David85]

Adding heat to water will convert it to steam and cause an expansion. To decompose water, an electric current has to be passed through it.

I came across an article about embrittlement, and it basically says that its not a problem, I'll try and find it if I can.

[George D.]

I don't think the heat would seprate the two but but what do I know. I saw a nother thread on the expy fourum I think and some Submarine guys were saying it shouldn't be as big a deal and may even make the pistons last longer. Sub use electrolisis to produce oxygen.

[chris1066]

I guess I follow you. It's a different kind of reaction when you heat that when you put electricity to it.

Is the embrittlement thing somthing that only happens with pure hydrogen?

[George D.]

I can't help but wounder if I'm gonna end up blowing my truck up with this like the beaker in science class when we were learning about electrollisis. Oh and I should add that the pure oxygen that is produced also is verry volitial I remeber discusion of only injecting oxygen for safty but that wouldn't be much safer.

[chris1066]

It makes water when it goes through the combustion cycle so I guess it would be like water injection anyway. And on that note I would assume it would somewhat lower EGT's?

[chris1066]

Pure oxygen? Wouldn't that be similar to using nitrous. I've heard of blown intercoolers and boots with nitrous backfires.

[David85]

I believe hydrogen can only cause embrittlment when it is subjected to a plasma near the steel such as in the case of plasma cutting, I still have to confirm this though. But it is less work for the hydrogen to simply burn and recombine with the oxygen than to react with the steel.

As I mentioned earlier, the hydrogen has an autoignition of over 900F, so nothing short of an electric arc or open flame will ignite the browns gas, as its called. If you keep the generator full of elecreolyte at all times, the only potential for an explosion is in the low pressure line that goes to the intake. There isn't very much fuel in here, and an explosion might be loud, but there isn't enough gas to cause real damage. A rubber hose might even be able to absorb the shock.

The final element of water injection at the end is what make this so interesting to me, there are just so many ways it could help combustion efficiency. The hydrogen by itself can easily burn completely with the diesel in the engine, and help flame propogation, but the oxygen will also help burn the diesel since normally out engines only get 30% oxygen.

[chris1066]

Well it's getting late. I look forward to seeing what you guys come up with the next few days.

I thinking maybe an old plastic toolbox. With maybe a few stripes of SS screendoor screen. I'll see whats laying around.

[David85]

Bingo, found it (embrittlement article):

http://pesn.com/2005/11/18/9600204_H...ent_non-issue/

[Dave Sponaugle]

Something to consider.

I have been doing calculations and a lot of reading.

First I read about several commercial units.
The size recommended for a 7.3 diesel will produce 100 liters of Brown's gas per hour.
That would be equal to 1.667 liters per minute gas production.
This number needs to be documented for your generator.

So without figuring anything other than the air the engine would displace at an RPM which was then converted to a per hour figure I came up with this.

A 7.3 engine turning 2000 RPM would consume 438,000 liters of air per hour.
If you inject 100 liters of Brown's gas per hour the concentration would be .023%.

Now let's look at air,
78% nitrogen
21% oxygen
1% trace gasses such as carbon dioxide, methane, nitrous oxide, argon, ozone and water vapor.
Carbon dioxide is the most plentyfull trace gas, 370 parts per million or .00037%.

There are trace amounts of hydrogen, but since it is so light the amount is almost none at the planet surface.

Now let's look at the Brown's gas, 2 parts hydrogen and one part oxygen.
So at 2000 RPM the oxygen content in the cylinder will go from 21% to 21.0075%.

Hydrogen will increase from an almost unmeasureable amount to .0155%.

So it looks like the hydrogen is helping the flame spread through the fuel so more of it burns, which does make sense if you ever saw hydrogen burn.

So that concludes HHO thoughts installment 1.