The HHO injection thread

[77F250Diesel]

The threaded rod would be used to hold the plates as in this design--------



Dennis

[Dave Sponaugle]

Dennis I fixed your link.

Am I seeing both all thread rods being double nutted between every plate?

When I look at the picture, I think I am seeing a direct short electrically.

[Dave Sponaugle]

This, if you will excuse my poor drawing is what it needs to look like.



Every other plate is connected to one of the terminals.
No connections where both terminals are connected to one plate.

[David85]

I think there is a plastic grommit that insulates the rod from the plates. You could also get nylon threaded rod and nuts, but if its held together with SS rods instead, it would be much stronger. Important when you consider going off road with this system.

Being able to bend the rod easily would also make everything easier to put together. I think I like this setup.

[Dave Sponaugle]

Well I just picked up my stainless.
1/8" thick x 2" wide x 48" long
A total of 5 pieces gives me a total plate area of 1022.5 sq. in. if I use it all.

In my drawing I should have said insulated rods, I plan on several pieces of all thread to assemble mine.

This is what I am working toward building.
Simple drawing and again I used green for the no connection rods.



I am actually drawing a three stage unit, but what I can draw in paint versus Autocad is two different things.

[77F250Diesel]

Originally Posted by Dave Sponaugle

Dennis I fixed your link.

Am I seeing both all thread rods being double nutted between every plate?

When I look at the picture, I think I am seeing a direct short electrically.

Thanks Dave--haven't quite got a hand on posting pics..
There are insulators between every other plate.
The example I posted is something I picked up off the net for a future "I'd like to try that", but, it's way down the list right now.
Looking forward to how you make out.

Dennis

[Dave Sponaugle]

OK, from the angle of the picture, the reflections in the plates made me think there was a nut between every plate on both rods.

I just didn't wanna see an alternator and battery meltdown, so I had to ask.

The link you posted was fine, it got me to the picture.
The front [img] tag was missing and the back one was there, so I just added the front tag to make the picture display in the post.

[George D.]

So dave is yours going to run on one stage for low air flowing into the engine than add in stages to keep the ratio of browns gass more consistand when more air is being drawn in to the engine?

[Dave Sponaugle]

That is exactly my intention.
In fact, I hope to be able to increase the ratio as engine speed/turbo boost increases.

Right now I have 8 double length 16" plates and 14 singles that are 8" long.

My thinking right now is two singles as soon as the throttle is anything above idle.
Then add 4 more singles at say 4 PSI boost.
And boost over 8 PSI kicks in the remaining 8 so all 14 are producing.

So far I have it worked into a box 8" wide and 20" long, with a total of 4 electrical connections.
One big common and then the three stages.

Shoot for a 4 amp draw in the first two plates, which should then draw 8 amps for the next 4 and 16 amps for the last 8.
So my electric outlay total will be 28 amps when all three stages are working.

I have not calculated the all thread rod surface area yet, but the total surface area is probably going to be over 1000 sq. in. of plate and rod.
I was really surprised the the edges of 5 plates 1/8"x2"x48" had 12 square inches of surface area.

But then again, since the outside two plates have no opposite pole out there to react with, that will be 2 sides of 2 x 16 that have very little reaction as I am thinking right now.

So that will probably cost me 64 sq. in. off my total.

Looks like 965.534 sq. in. will be the total surface area producing gas.

[George D.]

Do you have some fourmula figured out for how surface area relates to gass production or is that gonna be trial and error? Sounds light you have a good handle on this I may just wait and see how yours turns out then go from there. But I may be over come by my urge to tinker on the week ends of coures I could modify my valve body in my trans too keep me occupied.

[Dave Sponaugle]

I am figuring both gas production and amperage draw will be a linear equation.


Using two plates would produce X gas and draw 4 amps power which would be regulated by the amount of KOH added to the water.

If all the plates are the same size with the same spacing, Stage 2 with 4 plates should produce 2X gas and draw 8 amps power since the strength of the electrolyte will be the same across all the plates.

If that is true, then Stage 3 will produce 4X gas and draw 16 amps.

Where the experimentation will come in, is with the amount of gas produced at that amperage and what effect it has on the engine in those amounts.

And the most important thing to determine will be how much the water temp increases when all three stages are active.

From my reading I know that gas production is directly related to the amperage used.
I also know that if the plates stay the same size, the amperage used is changed by the amount of KOH in the solution.

The third thing I know is the temperature increase is directly related to the amperage used and the amount of solution in the container.

If what I have read is correct, if you have 1 gallon of water and are running 30 amps of current through it, the temperature increase should be Y.
If everything stays the same except the amount of water is doubled, the temperature increase should be .5Y.

Last night I was reading a bit about the effect temperature has on the gas production.
It appears the higher the temp of the solution, the higher the gas production is.
But I also know the solution temp has to stay below the boiling point.

So that adds another thing to regulate, either the container gets bigger or a temp limit switch shuts off the electric to one or more stages as temp increases close to boiling.

Adding a radiator to cool the solution is not a good option, the solution will be so caustic that aluminum is not going to last very long at all.
Brass may last longer, but probably not that much longer.

[Terrys_f150_f250]

Dave S, how are you going to turn on & off the different stages and what would trigger the stages? Would it be easier to use a veriable resistor to regulate the current to all the stages of your reactor? Maybe have it could operate from the throttle? more throttle=higher current=more gas? please keep us posted on your progress I'm very interested in the outcome.

Thanks,
Terry

[Dave Sponaugle]

For my application, boost pressure and adjustable Hobbs switches.

NA motors will be a bit more complex.

What I am giving serious consideration right now is timing.
Since I did my hot rod stuff with the engine, I am running my timing a little more advanced than a stock motor would run.

With how fast the flame spread will be with hydrogen, I am a little worried.
I keep saying to myself, we are only talking very small amounts of hydrogen compared to the amount of air going through the engine.

I need to get a gas production number, and stop worrying until I see how much gas I can make and run the numbers again.

[George D.]

How far is your timing advanced? I realy don't think the hydrogen would efect it more than 1-3*s The ignition event would start at the same point but propagation would be faster so timming would be the same but have the efect of advanced timing IMO.

[George D.]

Actualy I eas just thinking does any one now how much heat is produced by the compresion stroke under load? it may be hot enough to auto ignite 900*s even befor the fule is injected. Also I think it may be wise to put some sort of shut off device related to EGT if you are pulling a long grade at 900+*s and the pistons become heat soked the hydrogen could ignite as soon as it touches the pistons wich ould be very bad. Do these engines have oil squirters for the piston? I fell like i should now that but don't. If so that would probly cool the pistns enough to keep this from happening.