Bio Fuel Reality Check - finally

[scatgo]

[quote=JORYLEE76]yes i did. I still believe that its big oil trying to sway people to stay away from bio... with that.. if bio was so bad.. why would the goverment do everything there doing for the little people who make bio for self use...[/QUOTE

I think I missed something. The government is doing something for people that make bio? Please fill me in.

Latter.........

[tazo]

[quote=scatgo]

Originally Posted by JORYLEE76

yes i did. I still believe that its big oil trying to sway people to stay away from bio... with that.. if bio was so bad.. why would the goverment do everything there doing for the little people who make bio for self use...[/QUOTE

I think I missed something. The government is doing something for people that make bio? Please fill me in.

Latter.........

I would like to know too. I do know that there is some kind of program in California for fleet vehicles using bio. I believe the state gives a tax break. But you need to buy at least 400 gallons and need proof. I also thought that home brewing bio was not legal here. It was my understanding that you need to be certified. Correct me if I am wrong.

[Phydeaux88]

I believe the production of Ethanol for fuel should be short term.
If you look at this UNH paper on Biodiesel extracted from algae,
http://www.unh.edu/p2/biodiesel/article_alge.html
you will note that they advocate converting all internal cumbustion vehicles to diesel. It is; afterall, a more efficient fuel. There are enough diesel engines, well suited to passenger vehicles, to prove that it is a practical objective.
If diesel engines were developed for biodiesel the ridiculous B5 only of the EMA would go away.
By converting to Biodiesel and using efficient high oil content feedstocks such as algae, palm, and camelina that do not compete with human and/or animal feed needs the entire fuel needs of the US can be home grown and greenhouse gases can be reduced.

How do we achieve those goals

1. The Fed must mandate the change to diesel engines capable of burning BD with no problems.

2. We must give up the idea of using soy/corn oil as feed stock: they are both inefficient oil producers and they do compete with human/animal food needs.

3. The Fed should fund serious research to develop algae feed stocks and production methods. Note the UNH paper previously cited states that approx 15,000 square miles of algae ponds would do the trick, thats an area about the size of Maryland. I know for a fact that there is enough unused land to do that.

4. In the interim, until algae production gets going we should begin to concentrate on feed stocks like camelina, palm, and chinese tallow trees.

[monsterbaby]

Originally Posted by scatgo

I think I missed something. The government is doing something for people that make bio? Please fill me in.

Latter.........

Kinda surprised you haven't actually harped on that one considering the government is giving tax breaks and subsidies to start up new bio fuels plants.

Basically if you look at the actual cost of emissions caused by dino fuel you will find that in comparison bio diesel is darn clean, I got into this a while back but the decrease in fuel economy caused by the ULSD, and the emissions equipment required on new diesels actually ends up having a NEGATIVE impact on the environment when you add the emissions created by the increased demand and use of oil in refining, transportation, drilling and pumping oil. Yes thats right dino oil is bad enough that the 10% reduction in efficiency totally counteracts the 90% reduce in tailpipe emission but they don't tell you that little fact, just like your article only looks at the amount of tailpipe emission of a dino powered vehicle and compares ti to the tailpipe + all processing emission of bio, now compare apples to apples and compare the emission of dino tailpipe+ smoke stack of the refinery, smoke stack of the supertanker hauling it, smoke stack of the plant providing power for the refinery, smoke produced by the coal burned to run the pumps to pump the oil through pipelines, smoke produced by the plant used to produce the chemicals used in the production of diesel, yadda yadda and you will see that the article is a hit piece with zero credibility.
Funny thing is I am usually hammering environmentalist for doing this exact thing on global warming sheesh.

[tazo]

I believe that big oil, big money & deep pockets want to discredit biodiesel. Time will tell if we are doing the right thing by using bio. It's time for the big engine manufacturers to make bio friendly diesel engines so we don't have to use all the unnecessary smog devices that do not efficiently work in cleaning up the emissions.

[Phydeaux88]

Originally Posted by tazo

It's time for the big engine manufacturers to make bio friendly diesel engines so we don't have to use all the unnecessary smog devices that do not efficiently work in cleaning up the emissions.

Won't happen unless forced on them. That is gov'ts role in this process; produce the mandates that force the change.

[tazo]

Originally Posted by Phydeaux88

Won't happen unless forced on them. That is gov'ts role in this process; produce the mandates that force the change.

I have to agree. It is up to us to change the world in a better way. If more and more of us use bio then some day the gov't will have to change their thinking. With all the talk about global warming I hope the change will be sooner than latter.

[uliman]

I'm ready to turn my state (Nevada) into a gigantic algae pond. If we converted all of the vehicles in the country to run biodiesel, we would not have to buy petro from the sheet-heads (at least for that purpose). Only problem I can foresee is that Nevada is owned 80%+ by the federal government. If we had a Libertarian for President (yeah Ron Paul) then we could get around that issue.

Seriously though, we have the abilities to solve our energy problems. I believe that in the coming decade or two we will be forced to get our heads out of the sand (as well as our butts out of the Middle East). I told my 14 year old son that he may well be the last generation that enjoys the benefits of our long dead dinosaurs. And the diesel engine may well outlive the gasoline one.

[Greywolf]

Since tree snugglers can't be happy no matter what we do - I say they be banned from owning motor vehicles of their own, and either walk, bicycle, or ride horses to work.

If they won't do that - seems to me they are full of what they'd have to shovel so much of if they took the third option!

(I have a low tolerance for hypocrits)

Ain't nothing so stupid looking in the world as an oil smoke belching econo car with green peace stickers all over the back of it, due to lack of proper maintenance. Like buying a cheap pile of junk excuses the bad rings in it...


"STUPID PEOPLE are their own PUNISHMENT"

I believe 80% of those people are just plain cheap and won't admit it!!!

[FARM69]

I sure hope they don't move away from corn ethanol anytime soon. The midwest would go into a serious depression. Plus, there is too much money put into corn based ethanol now. I don't see a big change happening anytime soon (I don't think the gov would let it happen). Kind of like the big oil deal.

Maybe the government should stop subsidizing all these plants? Sometimes I quiver when I think how much I've invested in these plants and we can even pencil anything out thats over two months away!! ...But without the subsidizing all the plants would have closed months ago. They are getting extremely close to their break even point with the price of corn.

Soy Diesel has always been more expensive in my parts. At the rate things are going I forsee it to be a lot higher than dino at the moment.

[tazo]

Originally Posted by Greywolf

Since tree snugglers can't be happy no matter what we do - I say they be banned from owning motor vehicles of their own, and either walk, bicycle, or ride horses to work.

If they won't do that - seems to me they are full of what they'd have to shovel so much of if they took the third option!

(I have a low tolerance for hypocrits)

Ain't nothing so stupid looking in the world as an oil smoke belching econo car with green peace stickers all over the back of it, due to lack of proper maintenance. Like buying a cheap pile of junk excuses the bad rings in it...


"STUPID PEOPLE are their own PUNISHMENT"

I believe 80% of those people are just plain cheap and won't admit it!!!

Where I live there are tons of tree huggers. And they drive those old crap cars. Pouring smoke from one end of the valley to the other. They then go to the natural store with their dreadlocks full of lice and buy one organic apple and then drive back thinking they did the world good by buying a pesticide free apple.
I tend to look at the bigger picture.

[FARM69]

Wow... I'm glad I don't live in Cali....

The sad thing is, people don't even know what organic really is.

[tazo]

If I want true organic I would grow it myself knowing where it came from and what went into it. Cal is actually a very beautiful state. Lots of open forest where I ride my horses. You just need to know where to go and who to stay away from.

[mrxlh]

Originally Posted by FARM69

I sure hope they don't move away from corn ethanol anytime soon. The midwest would go into a serious depression. Plus, there is too much money put into corn based ethanol now. I don't see a big change happening anytime soon (I don't think the gov would let it happen). Kind of like the big oil deal.

Maybe the government should stop subsidizing all these plants? Sometimes I quiver when I think how much I've invested in these plants and we can even pencil anything out thats over two months away!! ...But without the subsidizing all the plants would have closed months ago. They are getting extremely close to their break even point with the price of corn.

Soy Diesel has always been more expensive in my parts. At the rate things are going I forsee it to be a lot higher than dino at the moment.

This is my arguement against it, and more than likely why you will see $5 and above fuel prices. E85 nor Bio can stand on their own. (yeah, yeah, yeah, I hear all the algee stuff, but I am from MO, show me first, don't tell me) Heck we are still paying farmers not to farm since the 80's. Let me also remind you where all the fertilizer and chemicals come from. Big Oil and Big Chemical. What is happening now is what I feared would happen, throwing away a bunch of money on nothing. Would have been beter spent on figuring out a way for the 6.4, 6.7, and whatever duracrap is into getting serious mileage as well as emission reduction.

[Greywolf]

Twisty are the ways of big energy. If a new fuel came out, did you doubt they would strive to control it?

They have, it's plain to see.

THOSE FINE MEN OF PROGRESS WHO STRIVE TO HELP US ALL (WHILE POCKETING THE REST)

There is no way on earth a big corporation would miss that chance.

It is done, as I foresaw.

*Paws carefully at the dice in front of him*

The next throw is what it will cost us in the long run - I think diesel will be around for a long time, but gasoline is a problem.