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All y'all MAF conversion gurus. A9 vs. truck ECM

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  #16  
Old 02-06-2008, 07:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stangbanger
Can these S/D ford trucks be modified somewhat without needeing maf"? just surious i know the mustangs have their own s/d cams and what not. But can mild head porting, and s/d cams, and some intake work be done without problem?
Yes.. you can modify all you want as long as the upgraded cam provides a stable vacuum signal. The mustang SD friendly cams also work well in the trucks.
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  #17  
Old 02-06-2008, 12:18 PM
mudgepondexpress mudgepondexpress is offline
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Weird, I have a 1986 SEFI engine in my 81 F150 with the stock AOD. I am running the A9L (auto one I believe) with stock Mustang MAF and it has had -0- ping issues. I towed a stock car for a few summers, use it to haul everything and it has never had an issue.

Kenny
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  #18  
Old 02-06-2008, 01:22 PM
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The Stang computer probabaly has too much advance for a heavy truck, something that can be cured with a MAF tweak or a tuner/chip. http://www.mass-air.com/Products.htm
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2006 E250 4.6L 4R75w 4.10, 2004 Ranger 3.0L 5-sp X-cab 4.10, 1994 Ranger 3.0L 5-sp x-cab 3.45, 2004 Subaru Legacy 2.5L 5-spd
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Old 02-06-2008, 03:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mudgepondexpress
Weird, I have a 1986 SEFI engine in my 81 F150 with the stock AOD. I am running the A9L (auto one I believe) with stock Mustang MAF and it has had -0- ping issues. I towed a stock car for a few summers, use it to haul everything and it has never had an issue.

Kenny
The A9L is the 5spd box...it has less advance curve than the A9P.
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  #20  
Old 02-06-2008, 05:25 PM
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I always read that the manual computer (A9L) had more advance than the autos so that the AOD's didn't burn up. It's been a while though, so I might have remembered that incorrectly...
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  #21  
Old 02-06-2008, 10:06 PM
RC Dan RC Dan is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mudgepondexpress
Weird, I have a 1986 SEFI engine in my 81 F150 with the stock AOD. I am running the A9L (auto one I believe) with stock Mustang MAF and it has had -0- ping issues. I towed a stock car for a few summers, use it to haul everything and it has never had an issue.

Kenny
Well, your not going from 69cc heads to 58cc heads and raising your compression up and over 10:1. I do like this info coming in, though, and really do appreciate everyone giving their input.
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  #22  
Old 02-07-2008, 02:37 AM
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[QUOTE=Conanski]The Stang computer probabaly has too much advance for a heavy truck, something that can be cured with a MAF tweak or a tuner/chip. http://www.mass-air.com/Products.htm[/QUOTE]

What is a MAF tweak??

Also, you use the Mustang computer from the FMS kit (the same as me) AND you have your base timing set to 18 degrees if I remember correctly. That said, how are you gettng away with SO MUCH advance (the computer with an aggresive tune w/ a large amount of base timing) with your heavy truck?
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  #23  
Old 02-07-2008, 08:57 AM
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[QUOTE=eco]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Conanski
The Stang computer probabaly has too much advance for a heavy truck, something that can be cured with a MAF tweak or a tuner/chip. http://www.mass-air.com/Products.htm[/QUOTE]

What is a MAF tweak???
It's the air adjuster thing on that site..

Quote:
Originally Posted by eco
Also, you use the Mustang computer from the FMS kit (the same as me) AND you have your base timing set to 18 degrees if I remember correctly. That said, how are you gettng away with SO MUCH advance (the computer with an aggresive tune w/ a large amount of base timing) with your heavy truck?
Here's my theory.. which I'm gonna soon prove or disprove as I have a Tweecer RT on the way.
First off I'm giving some credit to the heads on this motor, I have worked over E6's which have that kidney bean shaped combustion chamber that produces a swirl motion in the air/fuel mixture. They really do that.. as evidenced by the deposit patterns on spark plugs from this motor. Instead of the carbon being evenly distributed over the whole end of the plug, it tends to be more on 1 side indicating a definite flow pattern. I also cleaned up these combustion chambers and removed all sharp edges and casting defects, so these heads should be about as detonation resistant as it gets.
Second.. the motor is 357 cubic inches and the computer is calibrated for 302. Because this motor moves more air than a 5.0 the computer interprets this as a 5.0 under heavier load and backs out the ignition advance more than it normally would at any given rpm.
If this is correct then as soon as I change the engine size to the right number in the computer tables, the engine load calculations will return to the normal range and I will have to back off the initial advance to prevent detonation.
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  #24  
Old 02-07-2008, 01:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Conanski
It's the air adjuster thing on that site.
How does the air adjuster allow for more advance? As I understand it, I don't have one yet but this weekend I will order one, all it does is raise or lower the signal that the MAF sends to the computer so that you can tamper with the air fuel ratio to compensate for things like injector size and the other things that the site lists. However, if for whatever reason the motor is running lean and timing has to then be retarded, the adjuster can allow for more timing just by getting the AF ratio back to where it belongs. But beyond that, how would it allow for more timing than stock when the AF ratio is already OK?
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  #25  
Old 02-07-2008, 02:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eco
How does the air adjuster allow for more advance? As I understand it, I don't have one yet but this weekend I will order one, all it does is raise or lower the signal that the MAF sends to the computer so that you can tamper with the air fuel ratio to compensate for things like injector size and the other things that the site lists.
The thing I thought this post was all about was ways to get a truck 5.0 to happily run on the mustang computer... which has more agressive timing advance than the stock truck computer. The air adjuster compensates for this by altering the signal from the MAF meter so the computer "thinks" the motor is under more load and retards the ignition and possibly dumps in more fuel. This isn't the right way to compensate for larger injectors and isn't any better than using a MAF "calibrated" for larger injectors, but it's OK for tweaking an otherwise good combo.
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  #26  
Old 02-07-2008, 02:42 PM
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I thought the Tweecer RT only came for MAF applications? (mustang?) Is there one for an SD style truck? I would prefer to keep the MAP and all that but the bank injection is definitely something I don't like..

Oh, where would I find a Tweecer RT for a SD setup if one exists?
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  #27  
Old 02-07-2008, 03:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheRoadVirus
I thought the Tweecer RT only came for MAF applications? (mustang?) Is there one for an SD style truck? I would prefer to keep the MAP and all that but the bank injection is definitely something I don't like..

Oh, where would I find a Tweecer RT for a SD setup if one exists?
The Tweecer is a tuner tool for the EEC4 computer, all of the various different versions of this computer use the same service port so this tool can be applied to all of them. The MAF computers were just the first to be "cracked" this way so there is a lot more knowledge out there specifically targeting tuning these and the motors they control. You can't change an SD batch fire computer to an SD sequential computer with a tuner however, this requires additional hardware inside the computer module for the 6 extra injector lines.
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  #28  
Old 02-07-2008, 05:33 PM
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ok when you say tuner you guys mean handheld tuner? Or can a dyno guy go in and put a chip in it and custom tune my s/d computer?

-Randy
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  #29  
Old 02-07-2008, 09:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stangbanger
ok when you say tuner you guys mean handheld tuner? Or can a dyno guy go in and put a chip in it and custom tune my s/d computer?
-Randy
The Tweecer is actually part chip and part software. There is a module that plugs into the service port on the EEC.. where any other style chip or module would, and there is software you load on a pc(laptop) that lets you view, edit and save any and all parameters the computer uses to calculate fuel and ignition curves. If you add a wideband O2 sensor in the exhaust system you'll have all the tools that a Dyno tuner would use to burn a chip, but the difference is you have to figure out for yourself what changes to make to get performance or increase milage or calibrate a motor for aftermarket parts. The learning curve is steep and it requires some technical knowledge with computers, engines, and engine control systems, so it's not for everybody. It's also not cheap, $550 for the RT version plus $200 for a wideband O2, but once you understand how to use it you can make any motor run and perform well on any combination of parts.
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  #30  
Old 02-07-2008, 09:46 PM
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To answer the original question, you'll find that the Mustang EEC's are more universally supported by PC-based tuning software and hardware dongles - simply because it's more common for a mustang owner to seriously upgrade their powertrains moreso than the ford truck crowd, and tune accordingly. Mostly because people race Mustangs more often than pickups

Since the wiring differences between Mustang EEC and Truck EEC aren't that radical, a small amount of wiring-related pain up front pays off big when you have 20 questions related to tuning and 100 people can answer you on various forums on the internet in minutes.

I personally like Paul Booth's free "EECTUNER" software for the PC combined with Craig Moates J3 Adapter set. Including various adapters, a USB eeprom programmer you're into Mustang EEC tuning in about 10 minutes for about $100 or thereabouts.

Both guys are incredibly helpful as well. EECTuner supports any EEC that there is an associated BIN file, and both Paul and Craig have a collection of them. You can make your own BIN as well once you have the tuning knowledge and understanding of a particular EEC - you're not locked into Mustang bits with the Booth/Moates stuff.

Tweecer which was recommended above is also an excellent package, and slightly easier to install. Plug in cable, plug in laptop, boot software. I'm not sure of the pricing at the moment but several years ago when I got into EEC's (and away from GM ECM stuff) Tweecer was more than double the price, but a bit more plug and play.

I *strongly* urge you to tune rather than "lie" to your EEC. There are many MAF rescaler products as well as EGR bypass as well as other sensor bypass kits available, and from experience I have to tell you that using those devices make tuning the EEC more complicated, and rarely is the outcome anywhere near as good as tuning the EEC directly for your application, whether it be naturally aspirated or forced induction (supercharger, turbocharger).

Enjoy!
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