Well, the 8.8 in my 88 5.0 Mustang has held up to nitrous oxide and slicks for many years. It now has 161K on it and hasn't broken yet. It's only 28 spline vs a trucks 31 splined axles.
I would much rather tow 7500lbs in my 01 than in my 77. Yes the 460 accelerates a little better and the C6 has been trouble free, (both trucks geared the same 3.50 vs 3.55 and both have about 32" tall tires.
The 77 gets 6mpg empty or towing, has no a/c, has mediocre brakes and doesn't have the warmest cab in the winter.
The 01 gets 14mpg in town, about 10 when towing, has nice 4 wheel disk brakes, has a back seat, good heat and a/c and is 4wd.
The 5.4L trucks have a larger 9.75" rearend in them. I do have an 8.8 in the front.
The 5.4L engine has been trouble free, as has been the 4R70W transmission. It rides better, handles better, tows better, is warmer and cooler in the cab and gets over twice the mileage as my "better built" 77. Oh, and my cab corners and bed sides haven't rusted away either.
I love my 77, it's a heck of a truck, but my 01 is s better truck all of the way around.
1965 F100 bought new = no warranty repairs. / 1968 F250 bought new = no warranty repairs. / 1971 F100 bought new = no warranty repairs. / 1979 F150 bought new = no warranty repairs. / 1988 F150 bought new = no warranty repairs. / 1993 F150 bought new = no warranty repairs.
2004 F150 Lariat (with all the toys)..bought new...within three days the trans started to do the whee-oop (slipping) between gears.
The idiot service writer at the local Ford dealer told me..."Oh they all do that." Uh huh...I took it elsewhere to get it fixed.
Within a month, brake judder occured...took it in...when I picked it up, I discovered the idiots had turned the rotors..and ANYONE knows that turning warped rotors is a lesson in futility.
Even tho its the law of the land, I had to insist for them to give me a copy of the warranty RO...and there it was for all to see.
They charged Ford for new rotors. The pinheads didn't know I could decipher part numbers. When I pointed that out...they wasted no time installing new rotors.
In a three year period in less than 17,000 miles, there were a total of 5 sets of rotors replaced due to brake judder.
The local dealer's service writers were a clueless bunch of idiots.
They know about as much about CUSTOMER SERVICE, as a mule knows about fornicating.
Did they call when it was ready? They did not.
Did they return phone calls? They did not.
Did they care? No.
The dealer is now shuttered. Ford closed it the end of December 2007.
Why is Ford in trouble today?
It all starts with the dealers...a company is only as good as its agents.
__________________ Bill / Retired Ford Partsman ~ 1962/97
Part number research: Trucks 1948/02 / Cars 1949/91
1965 F100 bought new = no warranty repairs. / 1968 F250 bought new = no warranty repairs. / 1971 F100 bought new = no warranty repairs. / 1979 F150 bought new = no warranty repairs. / 1988 F150 bought new = no warranty repairs. / 1993 F150 bought new = no warranty repairs.
I had a bunch of new company vehicles in the 70s, 80s and 90s and had very few warranty repairs. The reason is because the 12 month/12,000 mile warranties ran out in about 6 months. I had plenty of repairs after the warranty ran out but before a current warranty would have run out.
I never had any rotor warping issues until the manufacturers downsized full and midsized cars in 77 and 78. Since that time, I have had warped rotors on everything except my 01 Escape (100K+) and my 04 F-150 (25K). The Taurus and Sable were the worst. The rotors on them warped constantly. Some were turned, some were recalled and some I lived with (75,000 miles in 2 years doesn't give much time for the repair shop).
I've had over a dozen trucks over the years and my 04 F-150 is my favorite. It gets better fuel mileage than any 6 or V8 I have had. I can squeeze 18-19 MPG out of it on the interstate and 13 or 14 in local running. The worst I ever had was a 75 Chevy with a 350 that got 8 MPG no matter what. I had two or three Dodges with 318s that I could squeeze 16 on the interstate on their best day. The 302 and 351 Fords (68, & 2 78s) got in the low to middle teens.
Many people have had a lot of complaints because of the problems they had with their new trucks but my only issue (early production 04) was a differential that was replaced because the original dealer didn't tighten the carrier bolts when they replaced the clutch packs due to shudder. The faulty repair turned a very minor issue into a problem.
__________________
2004 XLT Regular Cab, Short Bed, 4X4 with 5.4 and 3.73.
I'm going to have to respectfully disagree.....the current trucks have stronger frames, tougher axles, better transmissions, more powerful engines, and better build quality. Sure they might have some electronics, and they might have some nicer interiors, but for those of you that want basic trucks, there are still XL trucks.....and they coem with everything you want except a manual transmission.....and as its been discussed before....manuals are on their way out with every manufacturer. So I wonder...you say you want a simple basic work truck, small v8, regular cab and long bed, plain jane, simple tough truck. What part of an XL isn't that?
you got it my friend...
__________________ Pennsylvania Chapter: Enjoying our little part of the world 2007 F150 XLT super cab, chrome package, 18" Chrome Clad Wheels, 5" Step Bar, 3.73 LS, 5.4 FFV 4x4
2002 Harley Davidson V-Rod --to many mods--
2006 Polaris 700CC Sportsman --to many mods--
i agree give me a manual and inline in a 150. great fuel economy and enough power to get almost any job done. Auto's are nice for women and inexperinced drivers but in my opinion all real trucks have a stick.
thats just dumb...i had a stick before i got my 07 and i wouldn't give up my auto while i'm towing for anything....my last truck was nice and i liked it but i'm glad i'm back in an auto and i hardly would call my truck or others that have an auto "girls trucks"....
__________________ Pennsylvania Chapter: Enjoying our little part of the world 2007 F150 XLT super cab, chrome package, 18" Chrome Clad Wheels, 5" Step Bar, 3.73 LS, 5.4 FFV 4x4
2002 Harley Davidson V-Rod --to many mods--
2006 Polaris 700CC Sportsman --to many mods--
The newer trucks are made with ONE THING in mind: PLANNED OBSOLESCENCE.
Gone are the days when simple repairs took minutes, and back then, there were no such thing as pulling codes...what a freakin' joke. The average Joe can no longer fix his vehicle.
A 5.4 is more powerful engine than a 390, a 460, or even a 352?
Yeah right...it can barely out pull a 302.
And...all the newer piles have paper thin sheet metal, plastic everywhere, computers, calibration codes, thin uncomfortable seats, crappy brakes.
The build quality is better?
Take another look: Compare your '95 with your '07: The current piles have: horrible paint quality that's rife with orange peel, misaligned plastic parts held together with plastic clips, paper thin aluminum trim that tweaks when you put your fingers on it.
It doesn't take long for all that plastic crappola to start a squeekin' and a rattlin.'
Stronger frames? Ford used C channel for 90 years, and still use it on Super Duty's, and most of the other vehicles. The current F150's have fully boxed frames...all that did was add weight...lots of it.
...and as far as tougher axles...and better transmissions go...
THE BEST REAR AXLE EVER: FORD 9 INCH
THE BEST AUTO TRANSMISSION EVER: FORD C6.
Both were expensive to make, so they were replaced by what you call tougher ones. Uh huh.
Not ONE automatic since the demise of the C6 has been worth a damn...
Have an AOD?
Better STAY OUT of OD in heavy stop 'n go traffic, otherwise the little charmer will fry its guts. It doesn't take too long for this to occur, either.
The A4LD was so bad, that dealers ordered Ranger and Bronco II's with 5 speeds.
The 8.8 is a poor (and that's being kind) substitute for the 9 inch.
Gas mileage...despite all the so called improvements, the gas mileage is no better on these new plastic throwaway piles than it was 20, 30, 40 or even 50 years ago.
Want a rude awakening? Spend some time BEHIND the scene.
You'll soon discover what the reliability factors are, of all these so called improvements.
I really don't think you made a single good point in that entire paragraph.
Firstly you are forgetting that the government requires the tighter emission controls. These bring about most of the electronics that you seem to hate so much. Maybe gone are the days of repairs taking minutes but also gone are the days of engines flooding, having trouble starting in the cold, wasting fuel because of a poor A/F mixture. Either way, I can still fix my vehicle, it just may require a trip to autozone to get the codes read so I know where to start.
Give me a break about the 302 outpulling a 5.4. You don't honestly beleive that do you? The 5.4 compares fairly well to the 460, but understand that was a different beast to do a different job. Try comparing the 460 to the 6.8L v10. Also on AVERAGE how long did most people expect their motor to last back then. 100k miles was considered pretty good. Anyone today would be quite disappointed with 100k miles most people expect their engines to last double that long... around 200k. I am sure everyone can bring up the exception such as a 300/6 that lasted for 400k miles but i am talking about average in the "good old days"
Maybe the sheet metal is thinner, i really don't know. I do know that it takes a car much longer to rust today. I think the galavinzing body panels might have something to do about that. I understand the anger about plastic bumpers but I am just fine with the plastic trim being held on with plastic clips. in the 10 years I've owned vehicles that had that I really haven't had to think about it. I'm not sure why you would. I think the brakes are much better every year. Granted they aren't great because of the weight of the truck but seems with each newer model i buy, I replace the brakes less and less. The calibration codes are nessesary for the emissions and electronic fuel injection i discussed above
I think the paint quality is great today. I rarely see one with a noticeable error in painting, though ther made many thousands of trucks so I'm sure a few have problems. Are you forgetting the paint problems ford had in the 80s and 90s. I remember we got a free paint job on both my dads 88 and my 93 probe because it was pealing .
Give me a break about the squeaking inside. Yeah it happens but it takes a while. I loved the older trucks but they would squeak and rattle constantly, it was part of the charm of a truck. Are you saying a modern truck is louder inside than a older one?
Ford 9 inch was a good design. I relaly don't see how the 10.5 they use now is any different. In the applications an 8.8 is used in I've never had any trouble with it. I am not easy on trucks either.
C6 was a great one too, maybe one of the best ever on a pure work truck. But most of us need an overdrive, so unfortunatly we were stuck dealing with fords problems with that transition. Each year it is getting better and better, I don't hear much about chronic trans problems from any ford vehicle anymore. Though the AOD and A4ld were rough...
You've forgotten some too. How many lives have the airbags, crash zones, and ABS saved? I was in a crash in my friends 89 F150 on wet roads. I know ABS would have prevented the crash.
I understand we think back to how things used to be with fond memories, but lets be honest here. Each year trucks are improving I wasn't around to know the ins and outs of the trucks from the 70s but I am sure they had some problem areas also.
Manual transmissions have there place, little econo box cars and stuff that is supposed to be fun to drive like the mustang. Had an 88 F150 with the 300 and a 5speed, yes it got better mileage and could out pull my 80 with the 351. Now I have an 88 F150, 5.8L and a C-6, the inline got 2mpg better, I have no problems pulling a race car with this truck, and it is much nicer to drive in city traffic.
My brother has a 99F150 with the 5.4L, nicer truck than my 88 and can pull just as good with better mileage.
I have owned every style 1/2ton Ford has made between 61 and 99. The newer they get the better they get.
On the other hand I would much rather take a 70's truck out and have some fun in the mud than a new truck simply because I can fix it easily, but they ALL break, that's life.
Heck, anyone can learn to work on the new vehicles. All's it takes is the proper code reader. I've got mine on an inexpensive laptop. It's great. It data logs in real time. Very good to get intermitted codes, and evaluate sensor operating perimeters.
I'm an old dog, so if I can learn, anyone can. Just quit being so closed minded about it.
__________________
93 F One Fiddy- 5.0/AOD/3.55 230K OEM
93 F Two Fiddy Scab- 7.3/ZF5/4.10/Sidewinder II,94 Turbo pump,G Inj's, Velvet Ride, Turbo Bumper, Alcoa's
85 F Two Fiddy-6.9/C6/3.54/ Holley Red, Racor, Soup Bowl,AutoJet 3",Ride Rite Rear
Last edited by fonefiddy : 01-26-2008 at 01:52 PM.
the newer generation of people are used to the cheap chinese imatation, thats why they cannot see all the flaws in the automobiles produced today. sad. every new ford i have seen in the last 10 years had orange peel, silly kids with their loans.
the newer generation of people are used to the cheap chinese imatation, thats why they cannot see all the flaws in the automobiles produced today. sad. every new ford i have seen in the last 10 years had orange peel, silly kids with their loans.
Ray
blah, blah, blah....yeah, because the fit and finish is much better on your 75 compared to my 07....yeah right!
i'm not saying the trucks weren't good then but they are better now plain and simple...
__________________ Pennsylvania Chapter: Enjoying our little part of the world 2007 F150 XLT super cab, chrome package, 18" Chrome Clad Wheels, 5" Step Bar, 3.73 LS, 5.4 FFV 4x4
2002 Harley Davidson V-Rod --to many mods--
2006 Polaris 700CC Sportsman --to many mods--
the newer generation of people are used to the cheap chinese imatation, thats why they cannot see all the flaws in the automobiles produced today. sad. every new ford i have seen in the last 10 years had orange peel, silly kids with their loans.
Ray
Complete waste of everyone's time. Every ford you have seen in the last 10 years has orange peel? Do you really expect me to believe that? Many magazines and experts review fords along with all makes. They point out every detail they do not like. I have read complaints about seat patterns, texture of plastics every little detail but NOT one complaint about the paint quality.
Not only was that post offensive but it had no substance to it either. You did not point out one well known fact that illustrates your point. IMO you make older generations look bad, you seem simply bitter that things have advanced and left you behind. Manufacturing methods have advanced so much in the past 30 years its hardly even comparable. Our understanding of metal properties has advanced also. Machines do most of the painting today.
the newer generation of people are used to the cheap chinese imatation, thats why they cannot see all the flaws in the automobiles produced today. sad. every new ford i have seen in the last 10 years had orange peel, silly kids with their loans.
Ray
I went to look at the 2008 Expy's...horrible paint job...just horrible...orange peel everywhere...then I looked at other cars and trucks on the lot...NOT ONE had a decent paint job.
You got it Ray...ppl today just don't know the difference because these crappy paint jobs have been the norm since the late 1990's...and this is not only true with Ford, but all the automakers.
DASCRO: I spent over 35 years in the carbiz...and got to know what's good and what ain't. You may have lucked out, but you are the exception to the rule.
Problems: Auto transmissions = the AOD was a POS. Introduced in 1980 on LTD's, Merc G-Marquis & Lincolns...the warranty costs to repair them by 1985 had exceeded ALL the previous warranty costs COMBINED for all the automatics...dating back to 1951! Is the E4OD any better? Just barely.
8.8's: the pinion shaft pin (D8BZ-4341-A) broke off....the bits and pieces worked their way into the bearings and gears..overhaul time.
TFI ignition modules mounted on the dizzy (from memory: E43Z-12A297-A MARKED: E3EF-12A297 A1A/A2A)...a horror story...the POS was used on most everything beginning in 1983. If ppl were lucky, the terd might last a year, then it was time to replace it. When the module failed, the engine died...not too safe, huh. It could fail at anytime, anyplace...at any speed.
Could ppl replace their own module? Only if they had a thin shanked Torx driver = try and find one. After years of wrangling...the NHTSB finally forced Ford to recall 5 MILLION vehicles to replace them all...and the replacement was no better than the originals.
5.4 = I didn't say the 302 could outpull a 5.4...what I said was the 5.4 could barely out pull a 302. On the flats the 5.4 is OK, but climbing hills ain't its forte. Comparing a 5.4 to a 460? LOL.
Emissions: Yes, I'm well aware of the standards, and I'm all too well aware of CAFE....but regardless...did Ford really have to have 800 CALIBRATION CODES from 1980 thru 1991? And that 800 figure was only on trucks, vans, suv's, there were another 1000 for the cars.
The CC codes were on a paper tag that fell off...now the vehicle owner is stuck, because without that freakin' code...looking up emissions and some fuel related parts is almost impossible. The parts were ID'd originally, but, were is the keyword.
Ford used INK or paper labels to ID the parts, the ink faded away, the labels either faded to nothing, or fell off. Let's say you need an EGR valve. First go to the CC application charts...there may be as many as 30 parts lists for just one application...so a search must be made thru dozens of those lists, comparing one EGR valve p/n in one list, with another in another list...most parts ppl just didn't bother, and shined on the customers.
Squeeking interior plastic. Not everyone has the luxury of driving on smooth highways. If pot holes were present, or someone drove a few gravel or dirt roads, it wasn't long before the clips holding the parts together, worked loose.
The Number TWO complaint of buyers of new vehicles: squeeks and rattles. Number ONE: wind noise. Number THREE: paint quality. If you think the paint quality is good today, you've never looked at or owned vehicles made prior to the mid 1990's...when orange peel barely existed...even on econoboxes.
Yes, vehicles are safer today, but as far as getting better gas mileage? C'mon...the cars are far better, but don't expect anything better than 10-12 city on any F Series truck..regardless of the engine/trans/axle ratio.
__________________ Bill / Retired Ford Partsman ~ 1962/97
Part number research: Trucks 1948/02 / Cars 1949/91
The main reasons that there was much less warranty work back in the day is because there wasn't near as much to go wrong. The only electronics on my 77 are the ignition module and the am radio.
Today's vehicles are way more complicated than they were 30 years ago. A 3 speed auto transmission like a C6 is a whole lot less complex than todays 4, 5 and 6 speed computer controlled transmissions.
My 01 still has no squeaks or rattles. And it gets 14mpg in the city consistently unless I do alot of idling or towing.
the newer generation of people are used to the cheap chinese imatation, thats why they cannot see all the flaws in the automobiles produced today. sad. every new ford i have seen in the last 10 years had orange peel, silly kids with their loans.
Ray
The cheap Chinese imitations are far higher quality than the the typical cars of old. I worked my way through both high school and college working on cars (mostly body) and then spent the next 31.5 years adjusting claims on them until I retired. The cars built today have superior craftsmanship and quality than the cars of the 80s and older. The old American cars fit and finish had a lot to be desired. The fenders, door hinges and any other body part that bolted on had slotted holes so they could be adjusted to fit the hole and shims were used from the factory. Body men didn't know what to do when the Japanese cars arrived and the bolt holes were perfectly round and everything had to be exactly right for a proper fit. Front end alignments were done by adding or removing a bunch of shims (or Axles were bent on 4X2 Ford trucks) and the Japanese cars only allowed toe in to be adjusted. In the 50s, 60s and 70s (and some later) the orange peel on cars painted with enamel (GM used lacquer) was a sight to behold and 3-5 years was a long life for a paint job before it faded so badly it needed a repaint (silver was about a year). The metal was much thicker but you could expect rust holes after 2 or three years (1 year for MOPARs).
You had to replace the exhaust system yearly, tires lasted about 10,000 miles,, 100,000 was a long life for the typical car, tie rod ends and ball joints were replaced about every other sticker (6 months in VA in those days), and if it got cold, there might be one or two cars in the neighborhood that might start.
My brother has a body shop and when someone comes in and tells him they don't make cars like they used to, he says "thank goodness. If they did I wouldn't be working on them".
When I worked on used cars in the late 60s, I got tired of patching rust, overhauling engines and primative automatic transmissions and trying to match faded paint.
Good body work and paint match of 20 years ago wouldn't bem acceptable to anyone today.
__________________
2004 XLT Regular Cab, Short Bed, 4X4 with 5.4 and 3.73.
If we want to say that the paint on todays trucks is subpar then what the heck do we call the crap on my 88, the clear coat and paint are flaking off down to the primer. My 05 Taurus has an excellent looking paint job, granted they don't have a "SHOW FINISH" but you can't get that on an assembly line, it takes hours of sanding and painting and sanding and on and on to get a paint job without any flaws. The cars on Barrett Jackson for the most part do NOT have original paint.
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