i was just wondering wat the difference between the 351W and 351C is? i hear a windsor is just a small block 351 and the cleavland is a big block, but sized down to a 351. and ive also heard that they are the same motor and block, just made in different places. thanks for the help
The biggest difference is head design. The 351 W is basically a stroked 302/289. The 351C was only produced in late 60's/early 70's. Similar block to the W only stronger with 4 bolt mains. The heads have canted valves and larger valves and large ports. Makes good horsepower/ lousy mileage.
Ford came out with the 351M in the early 70's (tried to take the best features of the W and the C). Looks similar to the 351C, but was generally a 2 barrel carb, two bolt mains, and smaller valves and head ports. Didn't produce horsepower easily and got bad mileage (compared to the 351W).
Ford used the 351M in pickups and large cars from 71/72 til late eighties. The 351 W was used (69-97) in Mustangs/Broncos/vans and in Pickups (mid 80's to 97).
Just for info, the Boss 302 was basically a 302 block with 351C heads and pistons to match the 351C valve configuration.
If you want decent power and reasonable mileage, go with the 351W. If you can find a '69 Mustang 351W, it has the largest valves of any year 351W. With some minor mods it produces excellent power and reasonable mileage.
Good luck
__________________
'05 F350 SC SRW lgbox 4x4 6.0 auto
thanks a lot, the info was helpful. so basically the only difference is the heads. and that the windsor and cleavland are both small blocks then, thanks again
the cleveland was a completly different animal. nothing to do with the windser engine. if you find one, the good one is the 2 barrel carb version. it has heads with bigger passeges and valves. look for them in merc wagons.some lincolns had them. the M has nuthing to do with the other small blocks either. they make good boat anchors in calm lakes but other wise serve no usfill purpose. the C engine can put out some real power for a hot rod. this sory of c heads on a w bloke don cut it. no way can these heads be swapped.
Beg to differ oltrucker- you put the Cleveland heads on a Windsor, and you have an animal lovingly refered to as a "Cleavor". Winsors and Clevelands are indeed 2 completely different motors, however, with a few modifications, it is possible to put a Cleveland head on a Windsor block. CFmoore was close in his description of the 351w, but it is not a stroked 289/302. Once again, this is a completely different block. In 1969 Ford raised the DECK height of it's popular 289/302 small block and increased the stroke from 3.00 to 3.50. While many parts will interchange, a 351w is completely different than a 302. In 1970, Ford introduced another 351ci engine, the 335 series, sporting a different block, crankshaft, and a dry intake manifold. It sported large-port cylinder heads and became known as the small block that acted like a big block. With 2 engines available in 1970, both being 351ci, Ford decided to name the 302-based engine after it's Windsor, Ontario Plant. They then named the 335-series engine "Cleveland" after it's foundry and production plant in northeastern Ohio. Many "windsors" were produced in that plant, and they are called windsors, so it is not where they are built. Clevelands were built from 1970-74. The 351M was not an attempt to "combine" windsors and clevelands, although Ford may have been trying to follow the success of the windsor as the 400M was basically a revised cleveland in which they raised the deck as they had with the 302's to make the 351w.In 1975 Ford dropped the 351C and "destroked" the 400M to 351ci, creating the 351M. Ford called these new motors Midlands and somewhere along the way, people wrangled the M to mean "modified", becasuse , in fact, they are modified Clevelands. The Clevelands are sought after performance motors, but their short production life makes them and aftermarket parts for them on the scarce side. And sorry to differ again, but the 400M is just a bigger Cleveland, and some people swear by their performance. They are a little scarce and aftermarket parts are hard to find, coupled with the fact they have big block weight, which makes them less desirable for performance builds, but they should be good for even windy lakes, due to their size and weight. The Boss 302 sported a rare 4-bolt main block and special heads that were only found on Boss 302's. They were however, modified Cleveland heads with the exception of the '68 hi-port "tunnel heads". You see-much confusion abounds.
Last edited by doug1222556 : 01-12-2008 at 11:12 PM.
As if the last thread wasn't enough, I thought I could improve on a few points, both by simplification and elaboration. The 289, 302, 351w, 351c, and the 351M are ALL uniquely different motors for different reasons. Nothing on a 351c or 351M & 400M will directly swap to a 289/302 and 351w motor. Now for some myth busting, and my "personal" opinion as to how/why these misconceptions got started. #1 The 351w is a "stroked" 302. To make sure occlefty1086 and any other interested parties gain maximumn benefit from this thread, I am going to define a few things as I go. Stroking simply means lengthening the distance that the top of the piston travels in the bore. This is accomplished with a larger offset off center on the crank, generally shorter pistons and longer rods. Eventually, you run out of room stretching the length you can move the top of the piston up and down (stroking), and you run out of length in the cylinder. The only way to get more "stroke " is to lengthen the cylinder to give the top of the piston more length to travel. The top of the block is the "deck" and when you lengthen the cylinder bores you effectively "raise" the deck. Bore is the size of the cylinder's diameter, and increasing either the bore or stroke will increase the cubic inches of the motor.......SO....The 289, 302 , and 351w ALL have a bore of 4.00". In fact, the 302 is basically a stroked 289, Ford lengthened the 289's 2.87" stroke was lengthened to 3.00" creating a 302 with the same block. To create the 351w, the deck of the block was raised, while at the same time the stroke was increased. Even though Ford used different heads for the new 351w, they are pretty much a bolt on swap for each other.Blocks, intake, crank, rods,oil pump, oilpan, and pushrods are just a few of the parts that don't interchange. Myth#2- The 351C ,(or sometimes the 351M), is a combination of the Cleveland heads on the Windsor block. The closest Ford came to doing this was the Boss 302, where Cleveland heads were modified for use on a special 4 bolt main block. Adding to the confusion, is the "Cleavor", which IS a 351w topped with 351C heads. However, many modifications to both the block and the heads have to be performed before this will work.Ford never produced this motor it's a "backyard" motor. Myth#3 Already adressed, but as you heard, the 351C is a big block downsized to a 351. Once again, wrong motor- the 400M was downsized (destroked) to 351ci"M".Also, the 351C being known as "the small block that acts like a big block" could only help but fuel the confusion. Once you understand the differences in these Ford motors, it really isin't that difficult or confusing, it is just that too many "wive's tales, so to speak" have been spread around through the years, that it has made things more confusing, because these "know it all's" have passed on some tidbit of overheard missinformation as fact. If I seem a little obsessed by this , it's because it took a lot of time, research and effort on my part to undo a wealth of information obtained from mindless babbling parrots that I mistook for informed sources, and have been hearing all these same untruth's for years. If y'all still don't get it , just git a chevy, theys all tha same. No DIS intended for any present company.
and to go one step further, the 351M and 400 are not "only good for boat anchors".
they are both very good low rpm high torque engines. the big problem is that all the polution crap chokes them. if you take all the junk off them, they will run very well. and there is a guy named T Meyers that has made a name for himself by building killer 400 engines.
__________________
Join me in the New Jersey Chapter, CLICK HERE!
Join Our Site - Its free, quick and easy!
