Interesting thread.
I'll admit up front that I am not one who requires a V8 and lots of towing /hauling capabilities.
I DO need a truck, but not for real heavy duty stuff.
That said.....
I bought a 2000 F150 XL w/ 4.2 and 5 speed for about $16k brand new back in Jan 2000. I put 170,000 miles on it.
In Jan 2005 I bought an XL w/ 4.2 and auto transmission for $14,700.
Both were "Plain Jane" trucks and were just what I was looking for.
One of the main reasons I buy the XL work truck is BECAUSE it doesn't have a lot of extras and power options. I know things are more reliable these days but I still seem to have the best luck, on an individual level, when there is less stuff to break.
I have 120,000 miles on my '05 and have never regretted buying it.
I saw just a few weeks ago where the local dealer I bought both trucks at was running the same deal now on the '08 F150 XL.
I think the price was about $16,500, give or take a few bucks. A good deal in my book, if a "Plain Jane" is what you are looking for.
FTE Ken: Go to the GMC websitem for the MSRPs I'd post a link but that dang flash is too slow to load at the moment.
I'm sure you have seen many autos with 200K, So have I. This is not the question. The question was if an auto could take overloaded miles as well as a manual. My brothers manual was a 1/2 ton lisenced for 12K LBS. He never hauled quite that much but came close a few times. My brother's experiance using an auto trany for the same purpose has not helped my oppinion of them. He's hauling the same load as his manual and he fried it at only 30K This compares to the 200K he put on the manual. His new truck has a cooler and everything and it still went out. Yes he was abusing it. i will not argue that. But when the manual takes the abuse for 200K and the auto only takes it for 30K it tells me alot. I want to say the trany in his current truck is a 700R4 But I will have to verify it and report back.
Last edited by Old Rust Bucket : 01-04-2008 at 11:44 PM.
Also, FYI- I was told by a Ford exec. that the reason that trucks with manual trannys have a lower tow rating is solely because Ford doesn't want to replace clutches under warranty for people that don't really know how to drive a stick.
Which Ford exec told you this? Maybe I know him and can get clarification, especially since the vast majority of execs I've met don't know the technical/engineering specifics of the trucks. I'll see if he can give me a qualified response from engineering.
__________________
-Ken
Look, I'm gonna have to ask you to go ahead, just come back another time. I got a meeting with the Bob's in a couple minutes.
If you want a plain jane standard cab truck, go to farm country in the sticks. City slickers don't buy many plain jane straight drives. Old time type farmers want them but the modern gentleman farmer wants fancy.
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2004 XLT Regular Cab, Short Bed, 4X4 with 5.4 and 3.73.
Which Ford exec told you this? Maybe I know him and can get clarification, especially since the vast majority of execs I've met don't know the technical/engineering specifics of the trucks. I'll see if he can give me a qualified response from engineering.
No offence but it's been my experience that when you start to drop names, that people stop talking to you.
What I can tell you is that I had this conversation about 10 years ago.
Now taking this conversation to the next level, your comment about putting a granny gear in manuals does have merit. However, lower gearing helps with autos or manuals. That is why the max. tow ratings that Ford advertises with the F150 only applies to the HD package with 4.10 gears. Do you honestly think that an F150 with the 6 speed tranny out of the SD's and the 4.10 rear wouldn't be able to pull as much weight as the same truck with an auto?
Plus we're only talking about starting from a dead stop. Once you're moving you have better control over gear selection with the manual. As for stopping (forget about manually gearing down), the brakes are the same.
I for one have never bought the whole "torque multiplication" of the torque converter. I will agree that it will slip and lock up however IT SIMPLY CAN NOT MULTIPLY TORQUE WITH INTERNAL GEARS!! Rear Gears and gears inside the transmission/Transfer Case multiply the torque.
As for towing/hauling. Anyone that has towed or hauled heavy loads knows a manual is simply better for effincency and control of gears when going down hills and and up them for that matter. Autos seem to get to hot and shift alot when climbing and your brakes tend to get way to hot when going down hills.
Ken,
Will you PLEASE post a link to these statistics you speak of?
As for towing/hauling. Anyone that has towed or hauled heavy loads knows a manual is simply better for effincency and control of gears when going down hills and and up them for that matter. Autos seem to get to hot and shift alot when climbing and your brakes tend to get way to hot when going down hills.
I've towed everything with everything for over 40 years. You need to know how to equip and tow with an automatic as much as you need to know how to tow with a straight drive. A transmission cooler is needed with an automatic (they're not expensive if your vehicle is not already equipped with one). You don't drop it in drive and step on the gas. You drop the transmission in to lower gears yourself when you approach a steep upgrade (do it before you start pulling hard). The increased engine speed will increase the fluid flow to the radiator and transmission cooler and will usually keep the transmission from overheating. It also helps to keep the engine from overheating. On downgrades, you downshift and let the engine do most of the braking. You also do this before you start the decent. Paying attention and not rushing things go a long way with towing.
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2004 XLT Regular Cab, Short Bed, 4X4 with 5.4 and 3.73.
I for one have never bought the whole "torque multiplication" of the torque converter. I will agree that it will slip and lock up however IT SIMPLY CAN NOT MULTIPLY TORQUE WITH INTERNAL GEARS!! Rear Gears and gears inside the transmission/Transfer Case multiply the torque.
So any idea by what amount the torque is multiplied in an F150?
Also, what are the gear ratios for 1st in an F150 auto and 1st and Low in the 6spd. SD manual?
So any idea by what amount the torque is multiplied in an F150?
Also, what are the gear ratios for 1st in an F150 auto and 1st and Low in the 6spd. SD manual?
Based on what I read, and think I understand, torque multiplication is a function of turbine speed -vs- impeller speed. The greater the differential between the two, the greater the torque multiplication. So, once the vehicle begins to roll the torque multiplication begins to diminish until it becomes 1:1.
As far as gear ratios: Here's the specs for my model: 2005 F150 with 4R70E auto. http://www.ford-trucks.com/specs/2005/2005_f150_1.html
Looks like 5 speed manual has a 1st gear ratio of 3.90:1 and the 4R70E is 2.84:1.
No offence but it's been my experience that when you start to drop names, that people stop talking to you.
What I can tell you is that I had this conversation about 10 years ago.
As Gorbechov said, "trust but verify." If privacy about the person is a concern, send me an email PM -- I don't spill secrets (I know many things about the new F150 and you haven't seen me discuss them here). Ford offers sticks in a variety of vehicles and by your reasoning Ford should get rid of automatics since they tend to have higher warranty claims compared to manuals.
Quote:
Now taking this conversation to the next level, your comment about putting a granny gear in manuals does have merit. However, lower gearing helps with autos or manuals. That is why the max. tow ratings that Ford advertises with the F150 only applies to the HD package with 4.10 gears. Do you honestly think that an F150 with the 6 speed tranny out of the SD's and the 4.10 rear wouldn't be able to pull as much weight as the same truck with an auto?
Ah, but you're not comparing apples to apples. To do so, we'd need to look at ratios of each gear. At any given gear ratio an automatic is going to tow more than a manual.
Quote:
Plus we're only talking about starting from a dead stop. Once you're moving you have better control over gear selection with the manual.
That much is true. I know, however, if you data log these F-150s you'll find the shift points are pretty close to optimal.
Quote:
As for stopping (forget about manually gearing down), the brakes are the same.
The automatic transmission tow-haul on the new trucks does a great job of slowing down these trucks (Ford does a great job there... GM's tow-haul isn't all that impressive).
__________________
-Ken
Look, I'm gonna have to ask you to go ahead, just come back another time. I got a meeting with the Bob's in a couple minutes.
First off Ken, please let me say that I don't know you and am writing this with the intention of having an intelligent debate.
[quote=FTE Ken]As Gorbechov said, "trust but verify." If privacy about the person is a concern, send me an email PM -- I don't spill secrets (I know many things about the new F150 and you haven't seen me discuss them here).
As I said, I don't know you and I don't trust anybody that I don't know. However I understand your position as we've all heard stories that somebody's friend told a neighbour of a cousin, etc. I won't mention it again.
Ford offers sticks in a variety of vehicles and by your reasoning Ford should get rid of automatics since they tend to have higher warranty claims compared to manuals.
Except that Ford wants to sell vehicles and people want automatics.
Ah, but you're not comparing apples to apples.
Please explain as I thought that I was.
To do so, we'd need to look at ratios of each gear. At any given gear ratio an automatic is going to tow more than a manual.
Please explain what you base that statement on.
Bottom line Ken, please explain why you think that if 2 trucks are built for towing, but one has an auto and the other a manual, why you think that the auto equipped truck can pull more weight.
Also, we've really gotten off topic as this thread was started by Boots6868 lamenting the fact that you cannot get a plain jane F150 work truck with a manual tranmission.
If you do know people in Ford, then please let them know that they are losing customers because of this fact.
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