Go Back   Ford Truck Enthusiasts Forums > Misc. > Alternative Fuels, Hybrids & Mileage
Sign in using an external account
Register Forgot Password?


Welcome to Ford-Trucks Forums!
Welcome to Ford-Trucks.com.

You are currently viewing our forums as a guest, which gives you limited access to view most discussions and access our other features. By joining our community you will have access to post topics, communicate privately with other members (PM), respond to polls, upload content and access many other special features. Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free so please, join the Ford-Trucks Forums community today!





 
Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Search this Thread
  #1 (permalink)  
Old 12-12-2007, 05:07 PM
trinogt's Avatar
trinogt trinogt is offline
Posting Guru
 
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: Eustis FL
Posts: 2,349
trinogt is starting off with a positive reputation.
The ever-popular water engine!

I learned in high school physics about creating hydrogen by passing electricity through water (you get oxygen, too).

This article sounds crazy: The guy has a camaro with a 350, and he claims he can run it on pure water, by using a simple power inverter (750 Watts)and some relays to increase spark amperage enough to crack water right in the combustion chamber!

If anyone is interested in trying this, I hope you have an old, working engine in a rusting car out back to try it on. And if it works (or if it doesn't), I want to hear from you!
Here's the article. There is an explanation of the installation (very simple), along with a pdf file with a hand-drawn diagram. Very simple to duplicate, but I don't have a car to spare at the moment:

http://waterpoweredcar.com/1978camero.html
__________________
Mark
Sales Consultant
Prestige Ford, Mount Dora, Florida
1998 B2500 2.5 liter OHC
http://www.ford-trucks.com/user_gall...toid=5362&.jpg
Reply With Quote
  #2 (permalink)  
Old 12-12-2007, 05:29 PM
dchamberlain's Avatar
dchamberlain dchamberlain is offline
Post Fiend
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Lake County, Oregon
Posts: 5,658
dchamberlain has a superb reputationdchamberlain has a superb reputationdchamberlain has a superb reputationdchamberlain has a superb reputationdchamberlain has a superb reputationdchamberlain has a superb reputationdchamberlain has a superb reputationdchamberlain has a superb reputationdchamberlain has a superb reputationdchamberlain has a superb reputationdchamberlain has a superb reputation
I can't believe I'm actually replying to this.

If you learned anything in high school physics you should have learned that you can't get more energy out of any reaction than you put in. In fact, you will get less energy out of the reaction than you put in.

To try to make it simple, using small words. It takes more energy to split water into hydrogen and oxygen, than you will get back when you burn the hydrogen and oxygen.
__________________
David Chamberlain
2004 F-250 SD, 4x4 FX4, 6.0L PSD

Oregon Chapter Member:
To join the Oregon Chapter, click HERE
Reply With Quote
  #3 (permalink)  
Old 12-12-2007, 07:18 PM
aurgathor aurgathor is offline
Postmaster
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Bothell, WA
Posts: 2,886
aurgathor is gaining momentum as a positive member of FTE.
I think there need to be a sticky post in this forum about the usual scams (and impossibility) of using water as a fuel. Now you can the ranks of the proud who had fallen to this scam and posted about it here.

One long thread is here:
http://www.ford-trucks.com/forums/49...r-as-fuel.html
but you can search for "intergi drive", "aquygen", etc.

Last edited by aurgathor; 12-12-2007 at 07:25 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #4 (permalink)  
Old 12-12-2007, 08:41 PM
trinogt's Avatar
trinogt trinogt is offline
Posting Guru
 
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: Eustis FL
Posts: 2,349
trinogt is starting off with a positive reputation.
These are the type of reply I was expecting.
Now, I have to guess that you haven't actually tried it to see if it would work... Why hasn't someone tried this yet, and posted it on that site, or at least posted their attempt on a blog?

If I find out it does work, I am starting a special list, comprised of people to never tell about my free fuel vehicle. In 'small words', guess who's at the top of my list?
__________________
Mark
Sales Consultant
Prestige Ford, Mount Dora, Florida
1998 B2500 2.5 liter OHC
http://www.ford-trucks.com/user_gall...toid=5362&.jpg
Reply With Quote
  #5 (permalink)  
Old 12-12-2007, 08:45 PM
dchamberlain's Avatar
dchamberlain dchamberlain is offline
Post Fiend
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Lake County, Oregon
Posts: 5,658
dchamberlain has a superb reputationdchamberlain has a superb reputationdchamberlain has a superb reputationdchamberlain has a superb reputationdchamberlain has a superb reputationdchamberlain has a superb reputationdchamberlain has a superb reputationdchamberlain has a superb reputationdchamberlain has a superb reputationdchamberlain has a superb reputationdchamberlain has a superb reputation
I haven't tried jumping off a cliff to test my magical super powers of wingless flight either.

You can try this one for me too and get back to us.
__________________
David Chamberlain
2004 F-250 SD, 4x4 FX4, 6.0L PSD

Oregon Chapter Member:
To join the Oregon Chapter, click HERE
Reply With Quote
  #6 (permalink)  
Old 12-12-2007, 09:10 PM
trinogt's Avatar
trinogt trinogt is offline
Posting Guru
 
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: Eustis FL
Posts: 2,349
trinogt is starting off with a positive reputation.
Gee, that's real funny!
I thought only chevy guys were jerks... I guess Ford jerks do exist as well? Or are you really a chevy guy in disguise here? C'mon, fess up...

I try to get some honest opinions on a subject, and I get this guy.
Do the moderators care anymore?

Take your insults to another forum, bud.
__________________
Mark
Sales Consultant
Prestige Ford, Mount Dora, Florida
1998 B2500 2.5 liter OHC
http://www.ford-trucks.com/user_gall...toid=5362&.jpg
Reply With Quote
  #7 (permalink)  
Old 12-12-2007, 09:14 PM
dchamberlain's Avatar
dchamberlain dchamberlain is offline
Post Fiend
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Lake County, Oregon
Posts: 5,658
dchamberlain has a superb reputationdchamberlain has a superb reputationdchamberlain has a superb reputationdchamberlain has a superb reputationdchamberlain has a superb reputationdchamberlain has a superb reputationdchamberlain has a superb reputationdchamberlain has a superb reputationdchamberlain has a superb reputationdchamberlain has a superb reputationdchamberlain has a superb reputation
I gave you an honest opinion. The laws of physics are the laws of physics. I don't need to try something that is physically impossible to understand that it is physically impossible.

And, tell me, who is resorting to insults?? The double edged sword cuts both ways.
__________________
David Chamberlain
2004 F-250 SD, 4x4 FX4, 6.0L PSD

Oregon Chapter Member:
To join the Oregon Chapter, click HERE
Reply With Quote
  #8 (permalink)  
Old 12-12-2007, 09:26 PM
trinogt's Avatar
trinogt trinogt is offline
Posting Guru
 
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: Eustis FL
Posts: 2,349
trinogt is starting off with a positive reputation.
Your first reply started off with an insult, and had insults all through it.

And as far as the laws of physics, it wasn't that long ago that it was generally believed the earth was flat, or that space flight was physically impossible, or even heavier-than-air flight, for that matter... How do you know some of these guys aren't the new 'Wright brothers' of transportation?
Also, do you really believe oil companies would allow a car that even gets 80 mpg on gasoline?

If you haven't watched it yet, 'Who killed the Electric Car' is a great documentary about fuel saving programs that have been mysteriously cut, with no reasons, and with no one taking the official blame.

And just to make sure I posted this in the right place, this is 'Alternative Fuels', is it not? And you need to read my initial post again... Did I say I believed it to be real? I think you will find just the contrary...

Why do I always get the drama in here these days??? It's almost freakin' Christmas for Pete's sake!
__________________
Mark
Sales Consultant
Prestige Ford, Mount Dora, Florida
1998 B2500 2.5 liter OHC
http://www.ford-trucks.com/user_gall...toid=5362&.jpg
Reply With Quote
  #9 (permalink)  
Old 12-12-2007, 11:08 PM
weeds weeds is offline
Senior User
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Pittsburgh
Posts: 457
weeds is starting off with a positive reputation.
Sorry to burst your bubble here, but that page debunks its own myth. Part of making a statement like that is that you have to have some proof that it's true. The only thing they have on there is a story saying somebody said they did it, but nobody else can reproduce his results. Simply put, the way they have listed there won't work.

Oh, and Merry almost freakin' Christmas
__________________
I won't make a signature until you realize the irony...
Reply With Quote
  #10 (permalink)  
Old 12-13-2007, 01:29 AM
Allch Chcar Allch Chcar is offline
Freshman User
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Hoosier Land.
Posts: 35
Allch Chcar is starting off with a positive reputation.
Post

Hello, my name is Allch Chcar, I am still new to this area. But please, relax, tis the season they say. But everbody is so worked up. Just celebrate the time . It's okay dudes, Jesus loves you. You know?

Fact is: the '78 camaro is merely a story, nothing is proven about it true or false.

The waterpowered website itself is based on/by conspiracy theories as many such sites are. Liberally add salt. Take it as opinion, W/E. I gave up on it because it was mostly based on disputable claims. Sure the government is naturally evil, but wait we can always revert to option B or C or D, etc if cooperation doesn't work.


Heh Anyway, maybe no one has replicated his technique but the late Stanley Meyer started a phenomenon with his dune buggy. http://www.waterfuelcell.org/ is where some info is displayed. Facts: Very little is proven about his claims only videos and hearsay.

Electric cars are cheaper on day to day basis but most power plants are coal and such so you are still contributing to pollution albeit not as much(?). The cost of batteries eats up most of the economic benefits of electric cars while greatly shortened range eats up most of the remaining economic benefit. IMHO heavy, inefficient batteries did more to kill electric cars than other things. In some cases Electric cars were twice the price of gasoline engine vehicles in 1999-2000, which is what "Who killed the Electric car" is based upon. Fact is: Electric cars can have strong torque, low operating cost, and one driving gear without becoming a fatty, automatic driving poser. Newest breakthroughs are using lithium batteries. Computer battery research benefits electric battery research, it works out great that way. Tesla motors currently has a luxury car with good range and power but high price.

Electralysis is the current, realistic future for hydrogen production. Natural gas is currently the economical leader. But when not if cheap NG becomes harder to find electralysis will become more desirable unless an alternative can be found. Hydrogen as a fuel is low in energy density but more efficient mile per GGE(Gallon Gasoline Equivilent). Eg. 12% was the reading I picked as most reliable when compared to gasoline. Fact is: It's hardly known because more often than not fuel cells are pushed with hydrogen and makes it hard to find a good way of telling how economic hydrogen is over gasoline.

Hydrogen booster via electralysis is an option as a gas saver but they still have a long way to go before they can contribute any more than 10% mpg boosts. Plus they cost $750 for a complete kit that must be installed by you or someone else. DIY and it could be less but you need to learn the whole "science" and high efficiency may not be possible for everyone. The biggest issue is efficiency; you don't want to convert electricity through water into hydrogen, you will lose as they say, you want to use methods like electricity, vibration, electrolytes, and harmonics(lol) to efficiently free hydrogen from water for power usage. Otherwise you are stuck with a dead battery after a number of miles due to zero net power production. On the downside, while you might not be capable of converting to pure waterpower you could build a DIY onboard electralysis hydrogen generator, keep a few batteries onboard, and make a hybrid. It's still better(cheaper) than a fuelcell vehicle and might be able to get by with only a slightly-moderately modified vehicle and get unknowningly better fuel mileage. Never seen it done but it's an idea to start with. Fact is: Hydrogen boosters are more or less MPG scams. Sure it can improve MPG, but unless it is larger than a gallon or two in size, it will only extend your MPG another 5%-10%. If you get a H2 booster and drive without tuning your vehicle you can gain a 5% power boost at the expensive of MPG in modern cars. But with a custom vehicle tune and a proper H2 booster instead of being a cheap SC it becomes a small MPG booster.

http://www.switch2hydrogen.com/ Is the best option I've seen for converting to Hydrogen but requires a larger initial investment than more economical conversions. And they have failed to produce a sellable kit yet. The tanks are hydride which are more expensive but "safer" compared to compressed or liquified. The hydrogen tanks of which there are several, can be refilled from home, slowly via electralysis similar to charging batteries or using CNG hookups. Initial cost is $10k-$15k estimated from that company. Fact is: Tanks are $$$ no argument there. I dunno what it's going to cost to run a H2 generator or use compressed/liquified tanks compared to hydride. You could use solar panels, that company will even sell solar panels to accompany the kit but you'll need quite a few and that will be $$$. Better to wait for the newer solar panels being worked on. Nevertheless, an electric H2 generator running all the time even if it cost the same as gasoline or even double it'll still be cleaner burning and better for you. Maybe not so much near the powerplant but you don't live next to one right?

Right now laws are rather strict or undecided on vehicle conversions, mainly because of such small pockets of people who try this stuff. Right now the law seems to be so long as you pass emissions and keep you catalyctic converter intact you can run the conversion. I believe it would be just as wise not to have an unsafe setup installed just to prevent accidents, reduce liability, and keep laws minimal regarding conversions. Unfortunately we will always need a cat.converter for ICE because oil burnoff in some conversions has been recorded. But I'm fairly confident most of us can live with that, I know I can. Now with at least a rudimentary knowledge of emissions and vehicle conversions.

Summary of opinion: From what I've seen, hydrogen does have the possibility of being far cleaner than anything else we've used. From production, to distribution, and even in consumption it can be done cleaner than anything I've researched. I've only found 4 instances of solely water powered cars. All involved some form of electralysis. And they've mostly given questionable or zero economic factors. Hydrogen does not currently show any economic benefit because few have demonstrated respectable amounts of usage sufficient to be commonly used.

NOTE: If anything is inaccurate or questionable I'm sorry. But I spent a moderate amount of time researching this, I'd estimate over 10 hours but less than 50 hours for example. I'd prefer to not provide a source unless you have conflicting information that you provide with a good source. But I will find a source upon request or remove it from my post. Since I found my information from searching the internet, everything is bound to have some errors of facts, figures, or of judgment. Please contribute with at least some respectable rhetoric if you can, not necessary for you to contribute but please understand what I mean. If we discuss it someone is bound to hear. But if we try we can at least try to come up with real solutions. Where you come in is with what you know.

Please do not degrade or destroy this discussion. If water is the answer so be it. But if there is a better way not just cheaper, cleaner, or safer but better overall, we can really benefit from finding it. I'm here because I enjoy this topic. I'm cheap too (I'm currently attending college), clean air is my wish (I have to breath air too), and safe is what I need (I have family too). Hopefully we can agree on something here.
Reply With Quote
  #11 (permalink)  
Old 12-13-2007, 10:49 AM
62_Galaxie_500's Avatar
62_Galaxie_500 62_Galaxie_500 is offline
Senior User
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Merrill, WI
Posts: 231
62_Galaxie_500 is starting off with a positive reputation.
This Camaro owner got the idea for his system when he accidentally dropped a live 120V wire into a bucket of water. The water violently expanded almost like an explosion, so he decided to try the same thing in an engine. The problems are: his electrical diagram is severely flawed, the "relays" he used are not actually relays at all, and an inverter cannot generate enough voltage to "explode" water.

Reportedly, a process called electrohydraulic (sp?) metal forming does use a high voltage discharges into water to force metal panels against a die, but of course there is no way an alternator on a car could do such a thing.
__________________
It's lonely at the top, but you eat better.

2008 Fusion SE I4 5-spd.
1962 Galaxie 500 Club Victoria
1951 F2
Reply With Quote
  #12 (permalink)  
Old 12-13-2007, 04:10 PM
aurgathor aurgathor is offline
Postmaster
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Bothell, WA
Posts: 2,886
aurgathor is gaining momentum as a positive member of FTE.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Allch Chcar
Hydrogen booster via electralysis is an option as a gas saver but they still have a long way to go before they can contribute any more than 10% mpg boosts.
Provide some verifiable data that it works. If the hydrogen is genereated onboard via electrolysis, it can't and won't work, period.

Quote:
you want to use methods like electricity, vibration, electrolytes, and harmonics(lol) to efficiently free hydrogen from water for power usage.
When I see a list of methods like the above, that's a 200% guarantee of a scam that preys on the scientifically challenged.

Quote:
Otherwise you are stuck with a dead battery after a number of miles due to zero net power production. On the downside, while you might not be capable of converting to pure waterpower you could build a DIY onboard electralysis hydrogen generator, keep a few batteries onboard, and make a hybrid.
No, you can't. Well, more precisely, you can do it, but you won't get any benefit out of it, aside from lightening up your pockets.

Quote:
Fact is: Hydrogen boosters are more or less MPG scams. Sure it can improve MPG,
If it can improve mpg, it not a scam. But I can tell you it definitely can't if the hydrogen is generated onboard with electrolysis.

Quote:
http://www.switch2hydrogen.com/ Is the best option I've seen for converting to Hydrogen
Read no further than the first sentence: "The United Nuclear Hydrogen Fuel System"
If there were a BS detector with a scale of 0..100, that would register about 90 on that. A bit further: "We have found a possible way around using the restricted chemicals & Lithium isotope that formed the basis of our Hydrogen storage material. We are currently working on a new Plasma Hydrogen Generator to produce Hydrogen gas" This would actually make the aforemention BS detector to go up in smoke because of an overload, and I figured further reading is a complete waste of time.

Quote:
Please do not degrade or destroy this discussion.
Discussing the same non-sense the 6th or 7th is degrading in itself.

Quote:
I'm here because I enjoy this topic. I'm cheap too (I'm currently attending college),
I strongly recommend you to take the first year physics and chemistry classes as soon as possible since you didn't seem to learn enough in high school.
Reply With Quote
  #13 (permalink)  
Old 12-13-2007, 10:29 PM
trinogt's Avatar
trinogt trinogt is offline
Posting Guru
 
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: Eustis FL
Posts: 2,349
trinogt is starting off with a positive reputation.
Man, why all the harsh words? I appreciate all the positive coments that have come out lately, whether they be for or against the water claims. That was my original intention, so thank you for that, guys!

By the way, in the Electric Car doc, I enjoyed seeing that inventor of the latest battery technology, and also of the thin film solar panels. I might look into that some day for the roof of my house, with storage batteries to run off at night, expecially for hurricane time!

Merry Christmas. Jesus is CHRISTmas.
__________________
Mark
Sales Consultant
Prestige Ford, Mount Dora, Florida
1998 B2500 2.5 liter OHC
http://www.ford-trucks.com/user_gall...toid=5362&.jpg
Reply With Quote
  #14 (permalink)  
Old 01-11-2008, 01:55 PM
blue beast's Avatar
blue beast blue beast is offline
Posting Guru
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: sunny fla sometimes windy
Posts: 2,155
blue beast has a good reputation on FTE.blue beast has a good reputation on FTE.
Why wait for the solar panels? The federal govt will pay a third, some local govt's
will pay a third and the companies will give good rebates especially some of the
older technology companies now that higher efficent cells are being made!! You could
get a system going that will run your refrig, tv, and a few lights for the price of a good
generator (and of course the price of the fuel to run it$$ which is hard to get during a
hurricane or what natural disaster afflicts you locale) My brother runs a solar trailer
that he takes to concerts and festivals and powers the stage and band with and uses
it for a good portion of his house during the week on the high drain circuits. Of course
he has four big panels and a bunch of 96 volt battery which is the biggest cost out
of it all and you need to really care for the battery banks unless you want to replace
them and cut the benefits down to nothing ie if you can't keep your cordless drill batt
properly charged don't even bother. H2O2 is the way to go for this car though no way for a long time will H2O be a reality even though not too long ago a researcher
got salt water to burn after exciting it with microwaves. Think how reactive regular
hydrogen peroxide is now imagine that at 96% pure instead of 3% like in your medicine
cabinet.
__________________
86 fs bronco 302 auto 33x12.50 at rusty but trusty!
91 ford probe lx mtx The mighty vulcan 3.0

Before posting fuel related problems Run a couple of bottles of dedicated gas line dryer through IT!!
Reply With Quote
  #15 (permalink)  
Old 01-11-2008, 02:41 PM
bradshaw6243's Avatar
bradshaw6243 bradshaw6243 is offline
Old, but not too old
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Central Mississippi
Posts: 1,456
bradshaw6243 is a splendid one to beholdbradshaw6243 is a splendid one to beholdbradshaw6243 is a splendid one to beholdbradshaw6243 is a splendid one to beholdbradshaw6243 is a splendid one to beholdbradshaw6243 is a splendid one to behold
Here is a link to the same idea. This guy has a slick add though and is selling the idea!!! Even if I did not recognize this as a scam, the fact that the guy is selling vacations at the bottom of his page would be a dead give away. Some of you folks just do not understand, you cannot get something for nothing. Even if you do not believe in physics.

http://www.ford-trucks.com/forums/69...-on-water.html
__________________
Jim
2013 F150 5.0L Crew Cab
2007 Ranger Reg.Cab 3.0
"Watch out where the Huskies go, and don't you eat that yellow snow" Frank Zappa
Reply With Quote
Old 01-11-2008, 02:41 PM
Reply

Go Back   Ford Truck Enthusiasts Forums > Misc. > Alternative Fuels, Hybrids & Mileage

Tags
302, booster, engine, ford, hydrogen, inventor, killed, water

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On
Forum Jump



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 04:38 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.5
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Advertising - Terms of Use - Privacy Statement - Jobs
This forum is owned and operated by Internet Brands, Inc., a Delaware corporation. It is not authorized or endorsed by the Ford Motor Company and is not affiliated with the Ford Motor Company or its related companies in any way. FordŽ is a registered trademark of the Ford Motor Company.

vbulletin Admin Backup