I did have an idea for the blow off valve. You may be able to get something like a relief valve for a hot water tank. I don't know the psi it would release at but someone may be able to chime in. I'm not sold the duct tape solution, something that threads in would be alot more permanent/reliable. I'm trying to think of something that would use a valve like that.
I'm not sure that any kind of normal relief valve is going to work. An explosion like this would probably move at close to the speed of sound so the bucket is going to shred long before a relief valve could react. The bucket should be at atmospheric pressure under normal conditions, so what you'll need is something that will open quickly at only a few PSI differential.
I think making the lid or bottom fit loosely, perhaps clamped with a rubber band, would be the safest and easiest. I wonder what the neighbors or ATF would say to a series of "safety verification tests"? Too many racoons and stray cats around here anyway.
I was thinking the valve would help keep the gas build up close to atmospheric pressure, which would reduce the build up of gas before a explosion. Something like an ultra lowpressure pressure cooker valve.
Testing is fun. A co-worker set off a normal ballon of pure hydrogen and it shook a concrete room. I felt the explosion and ran next door to see if everyone was on the floor unconcious!
Not sure about the details you're bringing up regarding the impact of the hydrogen on the engines internal metallurgies, but my honest suspicion is that there is nothing to worry about at that point. For one thing, these hydrogen generator systems seem to have been in use for quite a while on over the road trucks, which would lead one to still ask questions about "frequency of use", popularity, long-term risks/benefits, etc. No real comfort found in knowing that "some" large trucks have been doing this for quite a while, while apparently most have not been.
At the same time, though, let's think about the combustion chamber. Hydrogen has a flame propagation rate that is 7x higher than that of diesel, and since it is already in gaseous form, provides quite a nice expansion of exhaust gases for both torque and horsepower. If you are trying to maintain your speed at 75 mph with and without the hydrogen gas' presence, you're simply going to compensate for the influence of the hydrogen by backing off the throttle in order to maintain your desired speed.
Here are some more points to ponder....
1. Since the hydrogen explodes and burns faster than diesel, are there any long-term negative impacts on the durability of the engine's internal members due to the faster stress cycling? I don't know. Perhaps.
2. Is the oil's lubricity affected by this "harder push" on the piston?
3. Is there really a harder push at after all, since our typical response in maintaining our desired speed is to back off the throttle and send less diesel into the chamber?
4. With question 3 in mind, does question 1 become a non-issue altogether?
5. Why aren't more vehicles using this? Why do we know few details about the dynamics, limitations, applicability, etc.? Does the absence of solid answers to these particular questions point to this being "not such a good idea after all"?
6. Gosh, now I'm almost wondering why I'm spending time on this, EXCEPT... it sounds like it has so much darned potential, and some folks are obviously already reaping benefits that are positive in terms of increased fuel mileage. Perhaps it is nothing more than "the fear of the unknown" that has kept this from becoming a wide-spread enhancement for automobiles.
Oh, well... I'm still wanting to investigate it and try to see what more I can learn.
5. Why aren't more vehicles using this? Why do we know few details about the dynamics, limitations, applicability, etc.? Does the absence of solid answers to these particular questions point to this being "not such a good idea after all"?
Oh, well... I'm still wanting to investigate it and try to see what more I can learn.
I think we're all in the same boat on that. I know I would never have even considered being near something like this, but being able to work through it here on FTE it at least becomes a plausible idea.
I did a little reading on the Hindenburg disaster and was surprised to learn that out of 97 passengers on board 62 survived the fire. Most that perished sustained injuries from the fall of approximately 275' or the fires from the diesel fuel running the engines. Being so much lighter than air the hydrogen flames appear to focus most of their energy in an upward fashion.
That said it seems like the rubber band lid idea seems like a smart move. Would the flash be enough to blow a fuse or should a disconnect be tied to the lid in case of blow off?
Gave the design some more thought today.
Something that would look like a pair of potato guns, mounted vertically pointing up, and plumbed together at the bottom. With a third chamber that is a large container and somehow it's duty is to keep the "potato guns" at a constant level. Sort of like an automatic dog watering dish that keeps a small bowl full of water from a large container.
Minimizing the air space in the gas generators would minimize the size of the explosion.
What I am visualizing in my mind would have to be mounted in the bed of the truck and be rather tall for it to work most effectively.
I'm also thinking that you could charge the water with salt as an electrolyte and then once the proper mix is attained, that would be it, as salt will not evaporate and the mix would stay generally the same strength because of the aformention automatic fluid level setup.
Thoughts?
__________________
Dan
1999 F550 4x4 ZF6 pulling a Cedar Creek 36RLTS. Lotta mods.
1999 VW Jetta TDI 5speed stick, all stock.
1996 Audi A4 Quattro. Unstoppable in the snow and ice. God and Dog
I was thinking along the same design using something like 4" PVC tubes for the guns and a 5 gallon bucket for the reservoir. The problem I see is trying to stabilize it properly unless your roads are much smoother than the ones around here. I was thinking something along the lines of a clear (or not clear) 2" hose to be used as a crossover between the pipes and bucket to allow movement so that vibration/bumps wouldn't weaken a connection.
As for the salt idea unless we figure some way to quantify how much hydrogen is produced or even needed I have no idea.
Okay, so let's break this up a bit. I see two separate phases to this. One is to build the generator, which I don't think needs to be over complicated over what the OP has already done. The second is integrating it into the truck's system. We know we don't want it running when the GPs are on, so we can build a simple relay that disables it when the GPs are on. That's super easy. I'm not so sure it's all that bad to have it on at idle though -- is there a mechanism that kills it at idle on the commercial system? Remember, at idle the voltage drops naturally as the alternator's output is low reducing the generator's output. The only way to find out how to proceed with that is to build it and try it out. Turns out I don't have as much work Christmas week as I thought, so I will have a little time to work on it then. This is a perfect excuse to go ahead and put in that handy LED off the GPR anyway. I see a master switch in the dash (for me, it will be where the SOTF 4WD switch would be), a relay tied to the GPR, and that's it. Nice 6 AWG wire going back to the bed where the generator sits with a 20-30A fuse inline would do it. I already have an ammeter of the appropriate size sitting on my bench, so it will go inline with the main power lead to monitor current draw...
__________________ Joe 02 F250 XLT CC SB 7.3L PSD 2WD Auto It’s got some mods.
I'm not so sure it's the volts that make the difference but the amps put into the system. Either way if your interested in the plate design, and not opposed to a little rust in your prototype I've got more galvanized steel laying around than you could ever dream of using. Figure out different surface areas you want to try out and I'll fab up some plates for you.
The way these types of things work is like a big resistor. The more Voltage applied (the "pushing" force) to a fixed resistance, the more current flows. Because power through a resistive circuit is calculated with the following: E (Volts) = I (current) x R (resistance), as E is increased, the I MUST increase because the R does not...
I'll be in touch, Chris -- need to see how next week plays out. Maybe we can put together something to prototype it and see where that leaves us...
__________________ Joe 02 F250 XLT CC SB 7.3L PSD 2WD Auto It’s got some mods.
I think this tank would work a little better than a bucket. http://www.plastic-mart.com/class.php?item=2465
Might be able to build a relief into the cap, if it is big enough to let an explosion out safely.
They also have some that they will customize the opening to your own design. If you look under their rectangle tanks.
Dan... nice idea about the salt, but when you electrolize a salt solution, you end up with by products of chlorine gas and sodium hydroxide (NaOH). That's the exact same commercial process that has been used for years to generate both caustic and chlorine for industrial applications... virtually no hydrogen gas at all, and we all know that we don't want any chlorine gas inside our iron and steel engines.
One other option instead of the baking soda, though, is lye (caustic soda, or caustic, of NaOH).
Having a physical power disconnect tied to a "blow-off" cap is not a bad thought at all.
__________________
Dan
1999 F550 4x4 ZF6 pulling a Cedar Creek 36RLTS. Lotta mods.
1999 VW Jetta TDI 5speed stick, all stock.
1996 Audi A4 Quattro. Unstoppable in the snow and ice. God and Dog
Been following thread. In referance to relief valve and psi in vessel (pvc) use pressure switch wired into power source ie. air compressor.I realize this won't vent to atmosphere but will allow you to control psi level.Thoese consitering fuel cut out switch might use a leveling switch ie.thermostat. Jim
Since parkland has his bucket in the cab running his inlet basically uphill, and we're talking about putting one in the bed I'm wondering if we shouldn't include a water separator under the truck at the hose low point to prevent water build up in the hose. I'm thinking of the small ones used on an air compressor.
Also if you're worried about marginal freezing temperatures maybe consider using a 5 gallon water jug since they're insulated.
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