I'm a wielder by trade. You can use any stainless wire you want, but the wire from a MIG wielder will be more flimsy than TIG rod, and if you wrap the wire on a tube in a coil, you could end up with self induction, which will increase the resistance in the circuit, so less electricity is going to the electrolysis.
Stick to welding ....electricity isn't your forte......coiling the electrodes will not increase the resistance - you're using DC ....the resistance for a length of wire carrying dc is the same coiled or straight. Inductance only comes into play during a change in current, in this case when the dc is switched on or off. And it would take a lot of close spaced turns to develop any appreciable inductance.
__________________ TRITON V10 - THE BEST KEPT SECRET - (But word is getting out). '08 F350 Scab SRW V10 w/ 4:10
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'05 Escape
' Passed the exam today! I am now a licensed instigator!
Well, I'll try this posting a reply again. I thought posted a quick reply but it's not there. Anyway this idea of injecting hydrogen into the intake air is new to me and I'm interested. I considered propane but I figured the cost of the propane would offset some or most of the mileage gain I would see. I am after fuel economy. The truck already has lots of power and most of it's miles are empty anyway. I assume your "generator" is making a hydrogen and oxygen mixture since you didn't mention isolating the positive and negative electrodes in separate compartments. Is that mixture what you are burning? I have a friend who sells compressed gases including hydrogen. A small tank of it and a regulator would be an easy way for me to experiment but that would be pure hydrogen. Anyone know if that would work or do I need the hydrogen/oxygen mix? Any idea what kind of pressure is in the 1/4 hose? I'm wondering how to tell how much gas you're injecting. Is there a danger to injecting too much? What kind of increase in fuel economy did you see? I assume from the race results there was a substantial horsepower gain. Any suggestions you can give would be appreciated.
lgspitler,
I'm not the expert on this, but at this point, I don't think there is an answer to what the oxygen in the brown gas may be doing for the engine. Hydrogen is very volatile, but has a high ignition temperature, the oxygen on the other hand should increase the combustion efficiency of everything the engine swallows. Parkland mentioned that he saw no smoke while racing his truck, my guess is that the oxygen is playing a role on some level.
I don't think there is very much pressure in the 1/4" hose, only the amount of pressure caused by gas building in the generator. Now if you have it in a bottle, like propane, I would imagine you can dump a LOT of the stuff in the engine, if you try this, please be careful.
I have heard that propane can have a positive effect on MPGs, so if that is true (IF), hydrogen should be that much better. Parkland mentioned in an earlier post that his MPGs went from 20 MPG to 25.
__________________
1986 F250HD Ex cab Fresh built up 6.9L diesel, Lariat AC leather seats power everything w/full cluster, sterling rear 3.08LS gears, E4OD trans, ram intake ATS 088 turbo
1986 F150 Ex cab Lariat rollercam 5.0L on LPG AOD trans 3.55 gears 390 000Ks
General rule of thumb on a propane system that I have seen is this.... when the price of proapane is equal to or less than the price of diesel, it is economically justifiable. Otherwise, there is minimal to no payback on propane.
The role of the oxygen is exactly as David85 has stated. You need three components for combustion of ANY sort.... Fuel, Oxygen, and Heat... take away any ONE of those three components, and there will be no combustion. The amount of oxygen and heat required will vary with every fuel. Excess oxygen always helps combustion efficiency, which is why thre was no smoke for parkland's 25 foot long tread marks.
Isolating the positive and negative electrodes simply alows for gas segregation. Taking out the oxygen improves the safety factor for the gas going into the intake, but it also reduces the potential fr highly efficient combustion by removing what would otherwise be excess oxygen.
In terms of measuring your generator's production rates, you can do this in the garage by using an upside down large jar submerged in a 5-gallon bucket, and let the tubing feed into the upside down jar.... like this...
1. Fill a 5-gallon bucket full of water.
2. Tie a string around the neck of an empty and clean quart jar, and then tiw two bricks (or at least 3-4 lbs of something heavy to the string (long enough so that the jar cannot float to the top of the bucket).
3. Place the weights and jar inside the bucket, making sur eto let the jar fill up with water and then arranging the jar so that it is upside down on the weights.
4. Place your generator tubing down in the bucket, making sure that the tubing is long enough to fit up inside the upside down jar.
5. Start your generator.
6. As soon as you see gas collecting in the upside down jar, start a stopwatch.
7. Let the stopwatch run until you see bubbles beginning to come out of the jar and up to the top of the water in the bucket, and then immediately stop the stopwatch.
8. The elapsed time is how long it took for your generator to generate one quart of gas (actually just a little more than one quart, but you can correct for the total volume by measuring exactly how many ounces the jar will hold above the quart mark by using a measuring spoon in the kitchen.
The largest volumetric producers I've seen advertised are in the range of 100-130 liters per hour....
100 liters per hour would fill the quart jar in about 34 seconds.
You can test your generator's production rate at different amp loadings by usign a rheostat on the feed wire, and you can also compare it to different electrode spacings. The bucket concept is rather rudamentary, but it is as accurate as anything else and very inexpensive to setup.
A sketch of what I'm talking about for the apparatus is below.
You're EXACTLY correct, Chris. Thanks for catching that!!
You certainly don't want to be doing this right next to your gas hot water heater or gas furnace or wood stove or space heater or ANY other type of open flame.
... The pvc pipe generator, (the pipe) will be about 8 feet long, and fit perfectly under the drivers side of the truck. Tucked under the floor. ...
As for the electrodes, they are gonna be made from threaded bar, (1/4"), and i'm gonna have 8 of them (4 +, 4-) running the length of the pipe, in a circular arrangement. Inside the pipe, pieces of pvc plastic, with 8 holes drilled into them, will hold the bars apart.
The 8 bars will stick through 1 end cap, so that i can remove the entire electrode package for cleaning/inspection.
...
Great thoughts. One thing that came to my mind is that you should also use "spacer supports" like the pic below about every 10-15 inches to ensure that vibration doesn't allow the electrodes to casually bump one another while driving.
The open center and the "gouged half-circle" cutouts around the perimeter will let gas and water flow easily from end to end. The spacer itself can be cut out from one of the flat glue on caps. I would also bolt the spacers in place so they don't shift position from road vibration while your driving.
Great thoughts. One thing that came to my mind is that you should also use "spacer supports" like the pic below about every 10-15 inches to ensure that vibration doesn't allow the electrodes to casually bump one another while driving.
The open center and the "gouged half-circle" cutouts around the perimeter will let gas and water flow easily from end to end. The spacer itself can be cut out from one of the flat glue on caps. I would also bolt the spacers in place so they don't shift position from road vibration while your driving.
That thing will be a monster . Please keep us posted.
__________________
1986 F250HD Ex cab Fresh built up 6.9L diesel, Lariat AC leather seats power everything w/full cluster, sterling rear 3.08LS gears, E4OD trans, ram intake ATS 088 turbo
1986 F150 Ex cab Lariat rollercam 5.0L on LPG AOD trans 3.55 gears 390 000Ks
That thing will be a monster . Please keep us posted.
I'm sort of surprised at parkalnd's sizing for his generator, too. Like I've already mentioned, with the proper spacing of electrodes, use of proper catalysts, etc... there are some comercial units that are SIGNIFICANTLY smaller and are reportedly using only about 10 amps to produce over 100 liters per hour.
Myself, I'm thinking along the lines of using and 8-inch diameter PVC pipe arrangement that is only about 12-15 inches deep, and mounting it vertically. I still have to research the electrode material issues, but am also leaning towards winding a heavy gauge two-wire electrode unit around a plastic core to get a combination of small size and close electrode gapping. I do like, though, some of parkland's concepts.
Any one considering a horizontal application, I would recommend adding several of Pete's spacer supports to act as baffles. This will minimize the water sloshing around and maintain a higher surface area contact with your electrodes.
Great thought, Chris... I didn't even think about the benefit of the baffling effect. You know, depending on the diameter of the rods and how close they are, I would even recommend using something like that spacer concept for vertical mounts that are more than a foot long.
OK, I refrained from posting for as long as I could .......It occurs to me to scale things down...and at the same time allow plenty of inter-electrode area. Why not - get some small diameter, say 3/8 (or even 1/2) inch steel tubing, and some heavy gauge sheet metal. Cut two squares of the sheet metal, say 8" square, and drill it full of holes to match the od of the tubing. Now braze or silver solder the tubes (perhaps a foot long), into the sheet metal ends. Now, some stainless tig rod can be inserted in the tubes, with a teflon spider at each end. The spiders will secure the ss rods and yet allow gas and water to pass in/out of the tubes. Now simply fashion an end cap for each end, fill with water (perhaps feed from bottom with float control) and take the gas off the top thru a tube. Here in an 8X8X15 inch cube you could have well over two hundred feet of electrode. I don't believe two electrodes in a plastic container are needed, the tube would act as one (ground side) electrode, and the ss rod the other. End caps can be light plastic, rtv in place. and provide blowup protection. Or make the disks round and use the ends of small plastic pails cut odd about an inch high. Just a thought.......
__________________ TRITON V10 - THE BEST KEPT SECRET - (But word is getting out). '08 F350 Scab SRW V10 w/ 4:10
07 Gulfstream Prarie Schooner
'05 Escape
' Passed the exam today! I am now a licensed instigator!
Please, alchymist, don't hesitate to jump in. I agree with you that a huge size is not necessary, and that there are several ways to get extremely long electrode lengths without having a huge device.
Do you have a source of these teflon spiders you're recommending?
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. Please keep us posted.
